Cloistered Nuns: Locked Behind The Grate

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Ive been on retreats when I was a teenager and in first year of college before I left to the UUs.

One had instituted silence. [/quote]In the other thread, you wrote that you have never met any enclosed nuns and that you turned down an invitation to go on a silent four-day retreat. Which version of the story is true, Budge? I have a shrewd suspicion that you are quite happy to make up little anecdotes if you think they will help your point.

[quote]I hope for the sake of the young girls here signing up they dont follow those rules like no particular friendships and other nonsense.[/quote]

As I wrote in the other thread, there is no rule against particular friendships.

[quote]Christians are not to meant to live in a vaccumn seperated from one another. We are to be the SALT of the world, ie spreading the gospel and more in the world. How can this be done in a CLOSED UP CONVENT?[/quote]

We're not separated. It takes more than a physical wall to effect a separation when you are in Christ. And being enclosed does not mean that you are incapable of doing anything 'useful'. God has used me to help save two lives without me having to leave my bedroom. I can't talk about the first incident here, as it is very personal, but I can write about the second. I woke up in the middle of the night with the knowledge that my friend Dominique was in danger. I knew that I had to pray. So I got up and spent the next three hours in prayer. When that time was up, I felt as if a huge weight had been physically lifted from my back. Incredibly tired but very peaceful, I flopped back into bed and slept.

The next morning I discovered that Dom had spent the night in the hospital, having her stomach cleansed after she had taken an overdose. She was in danger of dying during those three hours of my prayer. After they had elapsed, she was judged fit to be moved into a regular ward.

I may not have been actively involved in her rescue - I wasn't the one who phoned the ambulance or who sat with her in the emergency room - but the prayer I gave mattered just as much. To deny that contemplative nuns have an involvement with the world is to deny the power of prayer.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Maggyie]

Budge, I think what you don't fully understand is that the cloistered life is a free choice. You may be called by God to live in the world, but these women are called to live in the cloister. The goal of each life is to draw close to Christ. Some people do this in a different way than others, and it's not unusual to feel threatened or weirded out by a more radical form of discipleship. After all, what's familiar to us seems to be what ought to be "normal." But trust me, the fact that some Christians choose the cloistered life is nothing for other Christians to freak out about

Edited March 26, 2007 by Maggie

[Budge]

[quote]I don't understand what is ashame about ppl entering the cloistered life? Could you elaborate why you feel sorry for such nuns for example?[/quote]

I feel sorry for them because..

They are trapped in the false teachings of Catholicism and they are taken even deeper into these falsehoods, told they must forsake these things to become "holy" and live for God when that is not true.

Yes I do feel sorry for them they do not have the opportunity to get married or have children, of course in the secular world this will not happen for all, but they are blocked from it for good. I dont know about convents but I believe this imposed celibacy has certain been a disaster for the male side of the aisle.

Look people should have freedom [following Gods Will of course] but this is a life where while you all keep repeating they choose everything they do not, they will basically have their lives run by the Catholic Church or whatever order they sign up with. I know one of the vows is obedience where they even have to give up their own will as adults. You think after even a year, of having your will "broken", having your hair cut or shaved, not even being called your own name, and having all contact cut off with friends or family, a young girl is even going to have the inner resources to break away if she so desires especially if she comes from a family where they took pride in her vocation, and she knows leaving will shame her family before their church friends?

I believe it is a very repressed way to live and not at all one that God intended, locking away women behind bars. It reminds of me of Islam and how it makes women wear burquas--{isnt the very conservative habits almost equivalent except they show the face?, and the women are isolated in their own seperate enclave} Every false religion has this thing where femininity is to be suppressed and locked away.

I went to some of the cloister websites and read their daily schedules, I was right about the one hour for talk allowed with the rest of day spent in silence except for necessary exchanges for work reasons. How sad. Prayer is good, but silence for 23 hours a day? Thats equal to doing a solitary confinment stretch in Super-Max prison, getting only an hour out in the exercise yard a day.

Then lets talk about the habits, some of the more liberal orders had common sense in this area but sadly they lost it in other areas like adopting New Age ideas. Long sleeves, covered necks, thick fabrics in the middle of Summer, in Alabama? I wonder how many nuns die of heat stroke! seriously......

Who would sign up except that they have been trained they must SUFFER and work for thier own salvation and that somehow God wants them to forsake even the sinless joys of life {like love, and family}, it is based on deceptions. They will be told that their 5 am wake up calls, cold? showers, and in some austere monsteries that take it all the way, bad food, is for their own good.

They are then told too, that they must seperate from loved ones, I know nuns in the cloister cant even go to visit parents. That is so wrong, even if the parents are old and cant travel, they are then seperated from their daughter. How many parents, friends and others feel the pain of someone going into a cloister knowing they will no longer be a part of their life except the rare letter or prayer?

Then there is stuff like the punishments, where nuns have to confess chapter of faults, other nuns are told report other nuns for their transgressions to the Superior, My UU ex-nun told me about that one. I dont know if they get the toothbrushes out to clean the floors anymore or make them lay prostrate on the ground in the dining hall for punishment but if thats happening its pure nonsense, and more of what I'm talking about when the whole idea is to break down the will of a young girl and suppress her God-given personality.

Then the vow of obedience, whatever the superior says goes, if one ends up with a kind hearted good Superior life can be better, but a cold indifferent superior and youre out of luck. The priests in the trenches are bad off enough if they get a corrupt beauracratic bishops, but the nuns, they are even worse off.

Cant some of you realize you dont have to become a slave of an institution to be a servant of God, that these legalisms, living in a prison "cell" and the rest are unncessary. The gospel is a GOSPEL of GRACE. Not beating yourself down, in a regiment that makes bootcamp look like a breeze because even in bootcamp you get to go on recreation once in awhile. Im talking real fun like going to the beach not playing the piano for half an hour in a barren convent basement room with folding chairs.

Rome convinces the future nun that she is "HOLY" and "SPECIAL", gives her a new name and identity, and she signs up on the dotted line. This is cinched as she becomes a literal "Bride of Christ" which goes against the true meaning of that phrase.

Of course people will be told you werent meant for this, or you are different, you are holy, you are special...who doesnt want to be special? But I wonder how many of them look up after 10 years, realizing that they havent been prepared for any life or vocation that could earn a living on the outside and know they are stuck.

Monasteries and Convents do not understand the concept of the Body of Christ, it is to be living with others, here on this earth, other Christians!, spreading the gospel. Locking yourself away does no one any favors and is actually in my opinion against the parable of talents, youre literally BURYING yourself and your TALENTS!

Sometimes I read Vocation station like watching a trainwreck, young talented, healthy nice girls being falsely told they must give these things up for God and that they will be living for God by locking themselves away.

[Mateo el Feo]

Budge, you really have quite an imagination. Have you thought of writing for Jack Chick? You just need the cartoon visuals to go along with your narrative.

[Budge]

What is imagined?

I went myself to 5 cloistered websites alone to see if I was wrong about that silence thing, and if they were really only allowed to talk one hour...4 out of the 5 mandated it.

Ive read several memroirs by nuns and ex-nuns, and no it wasnt Maria Monk...{I didnt express tales of nuns being beaten or and other horrors did I?}

The "cover you from head to toe" habit, is showed right on the OLAM website, thats Mother Anglicas house and it IS in Alabama

Here take a look..{the one pictured could be an extern but the rest dress that way}

[url="http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/schedule_bellringer.jpg"]http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/sche..._bellringer.jpg[/url]

Is Chapter of Faults now something that has been done way with?

many orders do dress the nuns as brides before their final vows...

Nun dressed as a bride during vows...

[url="http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm"]http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm[/url]

so what did I make up?

[Maggyie]

[quote]Yes I do feel sorry for them they do not have the opportunity to get married or have children, of course in the secular world this will not happen for all, but they are blocked from it for good. I dont know about convents but I believe this imposed celibacy has certain been a disaster for the male side of the aisle.[/quote]Please, please understand that this way of life IS NOT IMPOSED. I think you would be surprised by just how free a choice this is, often made against the wishes of one's family. It is not an easy decision, either. Many Sisters have led extensive, highly successful lives in the outside world. I know several Sisters who got advanced degrees and THEN chose the religious life. They were not cloudy-headed naives who were "brainwashed" into it. If anything, they encountered a lot of opposition in choosing to follow God's call.
[quote]
Then there is stuff like the punishments, where nuns have to confess chapter of faults, other nuns are told report other nuns for their transgressions to the Superior, My UU ex-nun told me about that one. I dont know if they get the toothbrushes out to clean the floors anymore or make them lay prostrate on the ground in the dining hall for punishment but if thats happening its pure nonsense, and more of what I'm talking about when the whole idea is to break down the will of a young girl and suppress her God-given personality.[/quote]

The Chapter of Faults is not to break down one's personality, it is to train one in humility and make one more aware of one's actions. I know you are just being honest, but I don't think an ex-nun in the Unitarian church is a good source for info about religious life. From what you say she sounds somewhat bitter. Perhaps she wasn't in a position to be fair?

[quote]Monasteries and Convents do not understand the concept of the Body of Christ, it is to be living with others, here on this earth, other Christians!, spreading the gospel. Locking yourself away does no one any favors and is actually in my opinion against the parable of talents, youre literally BURYING yourself and your TALENTS![/quote]

The point of a monastery and a convent is to live in community WITH OTHER CHRISTIANS! There are sooo many opportunities to use your talents in the convent or monastery. Check out the [url="http://www.daughtersofstpaul.com/daughters/vocations/vocmiss.html"]Daughters of St. Paul,[/url] for instance. You might be surprised!

[cmotherofpirl]

This doesn't suprise me Budge, many fundamentalist have an extremely limited narrow view of life.

Anything that Budge doesn't understand, Budge condemns.

[Budge]

What is imagined?

I went myself to 5 cloistered websites alone to see if I was wrong about that silence thing, and if they were really only allowed to talk one hour...4 out of the 5 mandated it.

Ive read several memroirs by nuns and ex-nuns, and no it wasnt Maria Monk...{I didnt express tales of nuns being beaten or and other horrors did I?}

The "cover you from head to toe" habit, is showed right on the OLAM website, thats Mother Anglicas house and it IS in Alabama

Here take a look..{the one pictured could be an extern but the rest dress that way}

[url="http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/schedule_bellringer.jpg"]http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/sche..._bellringer.jpg[/url]

Is Chapter of Faults now something that has been done way with?

many orders do dress the nuns as brides before their final vows...

Nun dressed as a bride during vows...

[url="http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm"]http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm[/url]

so what did I make up?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Why do I always get the feeling that Budge has me on ignore? I clarified why they have bars and she just completely ignored me.

Budge, those kinds of tactics are just plain rude.

[Maggyie]

[quote]Ive read several memroirs by nuns and ex-nuns, and no it wasnt Maria Monk...{I didnt express tales of nuns being beaten or and other horrors did I?}[/quote]

Could you possibly provide titles or author names? I would appreciate it. I am interested in just where you acquired these ideas about nuns.

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='Budge' post='1220006' date='Mar 26 2007, 07:12 PM']Here take a look..{the one pictured could be an extern but the rest dress that way}

[url="http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/schedule_bellringer.jpg"]http://www.olamshrine.com/olam/images/sche..._bellringer.jpg[/url]

Is Chapter of Faults now something that has been done way with?

many orders do dress the nuns as brides before their final vows...

Nun dressed as a bride during vows...

[url="http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm"]http://www.cmri.org/steps.htm[/url][/quote]

To Budge,

The one pictured is a novice. Both externs and cloistered nuns wear the full habit. There might be some differences between what the solemnly professed nuns and the externs wear in terms of "jewelry". I don't know for sure. Let someone who knows explain.

Even I know the second congregation is not in communion with Rome, and I'm not Catholic. Also, they aren't cloistered.

These are small details that can be explained in great detail by someone who knows for sure.

Last, like I said, I'm not Catholic, but I recognize the value of withdrawal. These women choose cloister. They have between 5 and 6 years of formation during which to figure out if enclosure is for them. They aren't bound by solemn vows as soon as they go through the cloister door. It is a choice, just like your choice to post "debate" threads that don't actually allow debate.

Just a thought. Of course, I'll probably be on your dislike list now.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Nadezhda

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1219868' date='Mar 26 2007, 10:42 AM']Sure I see their posts, I think what a shame...

Especially the photos of the young 20 something girls with iron bars seperating them from their families.[/quote]

Always making the tear-jerking appeal... "oh noes! the Families!!! You're tearing away from their innocent loving, caring parents!!" Where do you get this narrow-mindedness about this vocation? They totally chose to go there, even if the parents don't agree, though in some cases everyone is accepting. No one is truly separated from those they love. There is heaven at the end of it all, remember???

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1220017' date='Mar 26 2007, 08:45 PM']To Budge,

The one pictured is a novice. Both externs and cloistered nuns wear the full habit. There might be some differences between what the solemnly professed nuns and the externs wear in terms of "jewelry". I don't know for sure. Let someone who knows explain.

Even I know the second congregation is not in communion with Rome, and I'm not Catholic. Also, they aren't cloistered.

These are small details that can be explained in great detail by someone who knows for sure.

Last, like I said, I'm not Catholic, but I recognize the value of withdrawal. These women choose cloister. They have between 5 and 6 years of formation during which to figure out if enclosure is for them. They aren't bound by solemn vows as soon as they go through the cloister door. It is a choice, just like your choice to post "debate" threads that don't actually allow debate.

Just a thought. Of course, I'll probably be on your dislike list now.[/quote]

Good points. Don't worry about getting on Budge's hitlist. It doesn't take much as I have found... or am I on that list?

[Mateo el Feo]

What I find so interesting is the contrast between Budge and these women who have dedicated their lives to Our Lord as religious sisters. Looking at the pictures of the cloistered nuns "locked behind the grate," they all invariably have these glowing smiles, unable to hide the joy and peace that derives from their vocation, living a life of prayer and service to the Lord. On the other hand, there's Budge, who's trying her best to paint the drabbest picture of cloistered life, conjuring up all the worn-out cliches she can think of.

But who's the unhappy one? The woman who gives her life as a gift to the Lord, or Budge who is constantly searching for the faults of others?

Ironically, I think most people here can see the prison Budge has built around herself; a prison whose bars of criticism and prejudice keep her from sharing an intimacy with the body of Christ, the community of believers.

[hoosieranna]

Dear Budge,

Since you seem to be nit-picking, here's another thing to consider. The nuns in the first picture appear to be Vistandines, unless I've really got the wrong habit. They have two periods of recreation a day.

Going on about only speaking 1 hour a day doesn't hold water. As noted, Vistandines and Discalced Carmelite nuns have two periods of recreation a day. So do the Pink Sisters, if I remember correctly. Also, the nuns are asleep for 5-7, even 8 hours a day. People don't generally converse while sleeping. If you really want to get your knickers in a twist about silence, complain about the Carthusians. They're very strict.

Finally, you neglect to mention the difference between constitutional enclosure and papal enclosure. Nuns under constitutional enclosure do go out on more occasions than those under papal enclosure. Many Benedictine nuns are under constitutional. Was it [i]ever[/i] stated on the "4 or 5" (out of hundreds) contemplative sites you visited that the nuns are forbidden visits or mail from family and close friends?

I'm not Catholic, but I'm tired of non-Catholic Christians being made to look foolish by those who rave but say nothing. Frankly, we don't need much help. Don't post things you can't back up, dear one.

Edited March 27, 2007 by Nadezhda

[Socrates]

Becoming a cloistered nun is a willing choice - no one is ever forced into becoming a nun. And there is a long discernment process before one takes her final vows. If either the candidate or her superior decides she does not have a vocation, she can leave.
I had a friend who joined a cloistered convent, and was very joyful about her decision, which she made out of love of God. After several years as a postulant, she left to further discern her vocation. She is currently happily employed as a school teacher.
I know several others who have left convents after a discerment period, and some are married. Others are living joyfully in their consecrated life of prayer.

The opinions of Budge are irrelevent to the truth of this. As usual, she is spouting off what she knows nothing about.