Cloistered Nuns: Locked Behind The Grate

[Budge]

[i]
First off, you're writing them the wrong way round. The Assumption is the logical conclusion of the Immaculate Conception[/i]

Actually Ive written the same.

Since they named the Immaculate Conception first,

they had to realize, that without sin, she couldnt die according to scripture, so they had to take care of that little matter or at least make her death, debateable.

Which is odd considering there are [u]TWO TOMBS OF MARY out there[/u], sancation by the Catholic church and no apostolic writer mentioned her death, or assumption considering that due to her age, it most likely would have happened in their lifetime.

[quote][quote]God uses the Pope to direct the Church (and prevent it from splintering into fragments, which is what has happened in Protestantism) but great responsibility doesn't automatically equate to 'greatness' in the worldly sense.[/quote][/quote]

Mark 9 where Jesus points to others who work in His name as being ok to the apostles and the fact there were 7 churches in Revelation, actually goes against Rome's one true church claims.

.[quote] Tertullian wrote of Peter's martyrdom in Rome in 200 AD (yes, over a hundred years before Constantine) and there are earlier references still. [/quote]Tertullian was another deceiver. Anyhow the protestant websites have versions of that guy promoting sola scripture while the Catholic ones have different things. Im going with Gods Word
[quote]

You know very well that people here are not saying that, but I'm sure this is a charge you would love to put into Catholic mouths. When the canon was assembled there were literally dozens of books floating around, purporting to be Scripture. The 'Gospel' of Peter. The 'Gospel' of Thomas. The 'Gospel' of Nicodemus. The list goes on and on. It was a Catholic council, guided by the Holy Spirit, that formally selected and definitively codified that canon. Prior to that, the books accepted as canonical differed from place to place. I can't help noticing that Fundamentalist Christians have no credible explanation for how the Bible came to exist in its current form. Anyone would think the various books just flew together and collided in midair.[/quote]

Unlike most here Ive read the Gnostic gospels, it didnt take a council to tell me they were TOTALLY FAKE. One of them even has Jesus throwing a schoolmate off a bridge or roof and reviving birds. They are total nonsense. The Holy spirit in fact will give a feeling of revulsion to a born again Christian believer reading a false book. In fact when I was reading the gospel of thomas, the Holy Spirit directed me to stop. Those books made me sick. That includes the mishmash called Wisdom and Judith==Catholic apocyrpha.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230992' date='Apr 5 2007, 02:58 PM']Unlike most here Ive read the Gnostic gospels, it didnt take a council to tell me they were TOTALLY FAKE. One of them even has Jesus throwing a schoolmate off a bridge or roof and reviving birds. They are total nonsense. The Holy spirit in fact will give a feeling of revulsion to a born again Christian believer reading a false book. In fact when I was reading the gospel of thomas, the Holy Spirit directed me to stop. Those books made me sick. That includes the mishmash called Wisdom and Judith==Catholic apocyrpha.[/quote]

I, too, have read the Gnostic gospels. And I did not believe them because their words were against what I know of Scripture and Church teachings. The Holy Spirit directed me in that, yes. But what about people who don't have a well-formed conscience, or those people in the early church who didn't have access to rest of Scripture? The council confirmed the gnostic gospels as being false because some people were believing them. The same thing happens today, or else there wouldn't be such a hooplah about the "gospel of Judas".

And I definitely wouldn't group the gnostic gospels together with the Deuteros. I understand where you're coming from. I used to think they were un-Biblical; I was even taught that in my Baptist church growing up. But when I read them, I found that the writings in them do not go against the rest of the Bible. That was my criteria (this was before I became Catholic, so I didn't look at what the Church was saying about them). Instead, I read them with the idea of comparing them to the rest of Scripture, and I prayed that God would show me if there was error in them. I found them to be consistent with the rest of Scripture.

[Budge]

Reza, glad to hear you think differently on that. I think that the idea of making a mere man infallible is dangerous. At least the EOs too have that point right.
[quote]

I loved reading this thread! I started reading it because the title is Cloistered Nuns, but then it turned into a theological debate which was fascinating. I think Budge would be a great Devil's Advocate for cases of canonization because she never gives up! rolleyes.gif[/quote]Hey thanks...I think;)
[quote]

I am not entering because I was brain-washed into a cult or because my parents wanted me to, or because I couldn't find a husband, or because I want to guarantee myself a place in heaven etc etc etc. I am putting myself "behind bars" out of my own free will and choice because I want to.[/quote]

Hey I never said anyone was dragged in kicking and screaming....just admitted it would be hard to leave and that the thought processes leading one to the convent were based on false religious teachings. saying that I understand the appeal this life would hold for an idealistic young girl or older lady...

Middle age is hard, Im approaching it myself...I know many singlemiddleaged women, I am happily married but I know that even I could end up a widow or him a widower. I actually believe it would be QUITE APPEALING for many middle aged women to join a set community, where they have ongoing human contact and a set community and at the same time be told they are living for God. I think American life is too lonely and socially disconnected. Even if a single middle aged lady has friends and an active life, things are not the same as they used to be with, relatives who lived in the same area and more. I have felt grief myself over having had to leave my past community--town and church and being in place where I and husband are on our own. So saying that, I UNDERSTAND THE APPEAL of ENTERING THE CONVENT.

However sadly,, the convent teaches FALSE RELIGION, while many nuns are great people who have a zeal seeking after God, it does not teach a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ but will lead you to more sacraments, Eucharist adoration, more oppression by clergy--who as you admit will "put you behind bars". Are you leaving any grown children behind? Some folks even friends will feel the pain of seperation from you.

My love of Jesus in fact instead of leading me to lock myself away, makes me want to go out and preach the gospel to the world. I was given the gospel by a street preacher, not someone who locked themselves away. I want to engage others and in my old community, I even used to preach the gospel to Wiccans and others. When one loves Jesus, they want to bring others to Him. They want to have the opportunity to touch the lives of others. They do not want to lock themselves away. You are not to hide your light under a bushel. Prayer life is important, time alone with God is important, conversation and more. But you reman stilted in what you can truly do for God when you are locked away from others. A Christian should be praising God every day. No matter where they are, at work or passing out tracts in the street.

[quote]
Budge, your main concern for young girls entering seems to be that you feel they have chosen a false religion and they will not be saved. But you, yourself have been a Catholic and a UU and now a Baptist. You now think that you have found the one true religion, I can see this, but it must be hard for you to know for sure when you have changed so many times? [/quote]Notice I fully admit the errors I have made on this board. I do not hide where I was.

I am a Christian now, my search is[u] OVER[/u].

Do you understand what Im saying? Even as a UU I was on the search for God. Now not everyone is a true seeker, but I know I truly wanted to know God, despite being so misled. Thats why I do what many would consider impossible things like witnessing to gung-ho Catholics. Many of them are young here, who knows where they will end up over a course of a lifetime. I had Christians witness to me 15 years before I was saved and remembering what they told me.

As for being Baptist, that is a limited term, I happened to attend a indp Baptist church, I could end up in a different brand of one now. [quote]


Often we try to convert others to our own way of thinking when we need support to help ourselves to feel sure about our own choice. I don't know if this is true in your case, or if you are just feeling zealous from a love for Christ, but either way, your enthusiasm is very stimulating.[/quote]

It is the latter.

I dont have the doubts I was plagued with for years.

Get saved and study Gods Word enough and you will not have doubts. You will know it is 100% true

I have gone through trials where I stood on Gods Word, and it never will fail a person.
[quote]
As a Catholic, I would love for those people closest to me to become Catholics too, but I know that I can't "save" them. I can, however, pray for them and if it is His Will ("Thy Will Be Done"), then they will be converted. If not, then I have infinite trust in His mercy and compassion. When we worry overmuch about the souls of others, then we are more likely to neglect the state of our own soul. If I did not trust in Christ's mercy, then I would constantly worry about those loved members of my family who have died, not knowing Him here on earth. But I have given their care over to Him, since He created them all in the first place!
[/quote]Well speaking of families, Jesus spoke of prophets in their own houses, having problems there. I pray and led by God in terms of those I know personally, different approaches will work for others.


[quote]
What does come across to me in your writings, my sister, is your deep love of Jesus Christ. With such a common bond between us all, Catholic or Protestant, it is so sad to see the temporal differences pulling us apart on this forum.[/quote]

Thanks I am glad you pointed that out.

As for the temporal differences, I of course see that differently.

God Bless you, I will pray for you.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, you do misunderstand Catholicism. That's not an apologetic technique, it's an honest truth. You think I'm trying to deceive you? Look at your own posts...you have never gotten anything right about the Catholic Church. You say you want a real conversation? Very well...let's have one. Stop accusing us of things we're not guilty of. That's not conversation. Stop twisting our words. That's not conversation. Try to understand us and what we genuinely believe. That's conversation.

Edited to add: I'm pretty certain I've never left one of your questions for me unanswered. Please show me where.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1231071' date='Apr 5 2007, 10:32 AM']Budge, you do misunderstand Catholicism. That's not an apologetic technique, it's an honest truth. You think I'm trying to deceive you? Look at your own posts...you have never gotten anything right about the Catholic Church. You say you want a real conversation? Very well...let's have one. Stop accusing us of things we're not guilty of. That's not conversation. Stop twisting our words. That's not conversation. Try to understand us and what we genuinely believe. That's conversation.

Edited to add: I'm pretty certain I've never left one of your questions for me unanswered. Please show me where.[/quote]

I have to agree with Rapael. I have never left anything that you have said to me unanswered. You, on the other hand have left many things I have said to you unanswered.

Also, you attack everything the Church teaches. I do not have a problem with that because by doing that you get answers and learn more. But, when I say what you believe is wrong and give reasons why there have been many times where you do not comment back. I am starting to wonder as to if you truly are trying to lead us to your "truth" or are you trying to just lead us away from the Church? Because, all you usually do is talk about how the Church is wrong with this or wrong with that (although you have never proved it's wrong... you have tried). But you never answer my questions about your beliefs, and that causes me to wonder. And when you do answer them you base your answers on your opinion or a misinterpreted Scripture verse (all of which have been refuted by myself or by others). You have not presented to me anything solid and many times even logical. And none of your verses have went against the Church so far. And you won't answer my refutes on Sola Scriptura or the Church Fathers. You simply say well... there is so many versions of the Church Fathers I don't even bother with them. How about trying to find the original version yourself? Instead of just chalking it up to... well, they were early deceivers. I have already told you that opinion and logic and reason go against each other. Ah, I don't know Budge... you just aren't convincing me. I am still open to being convinced, but .... you leave a lot of things out in the air never answered.

And as for Annie... I liked your post.

May God bless you!

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Which is odd considering there are TWO TOMBS OF MARY out there, sancation by the Catholic church and no apostolic writer mentioned her death, or assumption considering that due to her age, it most likely would have happened in their lifetime. [/quote]Catholics do believe that Mary died. Budge, why won't you admit how much you don't know about Catholicism? What do you stand to gain by pretending that you know everything?

I find it especially interesting that you're willing to accept that one of the two supposed tombs at Ephesus and Jerusalem is genuine. After all, those tombs were venerated and preserved by Catholics from the days of the Early Church - a time that you claim to be full of heresy.

[quote]Mark 9 where Jesus points to others who work in His name as being ok to the apostles and the fact there were 7 churches in Revelation, actually goes against Rome's one true church claims.[/quote]

No, it doesn't. There are lots of different Catholic churches today, such as the Byzantine Catholics and the Melkite Catholics. However, they are all answerable to Rome and they are all part of the same body. Rome simply holds 'the presidency of love', as Iraenaeus so aptly termed it. It's also interesting to note that of those churches mentioned in Revelation, all of them melted away...except Rome. The Holy See.

[quote]Tertullian was another deceiver.[/quote]I'd like to see some proof, please. You can't make statements without backing them up.

[quote]Anyhow the protestant websites have versions of that guy promoting sola scripture while the Catholic ones have different things.[/quote]

It would probably be possible to make the Church Fathers show support for Liverpool Football Club if you took them out of context often enough. I've seen those Protestant websites too. They normally have one or two sentences of Tertullian at the most. Catholic websites have whole paragraphs.

[quote]Middle age is hard, Im approaching it myself...I know many singlemiddleaged women, I am happily married but I know that even I could end up a widow or him a widower. I actually believe it would be QUITE APPEALING for many middle aged women to join a set community, where they have ongoing human contact and a set community and at the same time be told they are living for God. [/quote]Do you believe that people enter convents because they are idealistic or frightened or lonely? You're contradicting yourself again, Budge. Earlier on in the thread you wrote about how unbearably lonely that it must be in a place where there is only an hour of general conversation per day. Now you're telling Annie that she is trying to escape to the monastery for the sake of the company. Which is it? As Annie has got a loving family and was recently given the chance to live with her brother and his children, I don't think she would go across the ocean to a traditionalist Carmel in a foreign country if she wanted to insulate herself against a difficult middle age.

Let me tell you one thing: idealism and fear can't stand up for long in a convent or monastery. Religious life, like all work done well, is tough. Very tough. You need to have a lot of the quality that is known in England as 'grit' to dedicate yourself to God in this way. No one who was looking for an easy or rose-coloured life would be permitted to enter.

[quote]My love of Jesus in fact instead of leading me to lock myself away, makes me want to go out and preach the gospel to the world. I was given the gospel by a street preacher, not someone who locked themselves away.[/quote]

I've asked you this question before. You've never, ever answered it.

Do you believe that you can accomplish nothing by prayer unless you go out on the street with a bundle of tracts? In short, is prayer alone of no value? If not, why not?

There are many people who are called to an active life in the world...but there will always be nuns and monks praying for them. Their witness is not obvious, but they can do so much. They are not 'locked away'. As one old Phatmasser's username used to proclaim, they are 'hidden in His heart'. Think of it this way: nobody realised how much rainforests were worth until they started to be cut down so that the wood could fulfil some more 'useful' purpose. Then we realised that their value lies not so much in what they do, but in what they are.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Budge' post='1231004' date='Apr 5 2007, 10:24 PM']Middle age is hard, Im approaching it myself...I know many singlemiddleaged women, I am happily married but I know that even I could end up a widow or him a widower. I actually believe it would be QUITE APPEALING for many middle aged women to join a set community, where they have ongoing human contact and a set community and at the same time be told they are living for God. I think American life is too lonely and socially disconnected. Even if a single middle aged lady has friends and an active life, things are not the same as they used to be with, relatives who lived in the same area and more. I have felt grief myself over having had to leave my past community--town and church and being in place where I and husband are on our own. So saying that, I UNDERSTAND THE APPEAL of ENTERING THE CONVENT.[/quote]


First, thank you for responding in such a nice way. I appreciate that. I do think you misunderstand my reasons for entering the convent however. I am not lonely at all and the idea of living with a bunch of other women is not the attraction for me - far from it - lol! In fact, I am currently in Singapore and enjoying a very nice lifestyle at my brother's house while I wait for my entrance date. I have many choices and options in my life but am answering a "call" from God.

[quote]However sadly,, the convent teaches FALSE RELIGION, while many nuns are great people who have a zeal seeking after God, it does not teach a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ but will lead you to more sacraments, Eucharist adoration, more oppression by clergy--who as you admit will "put you behind bars". .[/quote]I love the Catholic religion and it teaches me that Jesus is my savior. The sacraments are gifts for me, and Eucharistic adoration is being with Jesus. Since we disagree on these points, I don't expect these to have any attraction for you, but they are certainly appealing for me. Rather than seeing the clergy as oppressive, I find them an inspiration. My last spiritual director was 85 years old and an incredibly holy man, kind and loving and a model of Jesus. And no one is putting me behind bars. I am joyfully begging to be put there so that I can spend my life in prayer - something that you also don't seem to value?

[quote]Are you leaving any grown children behind? Some folks even friends will feel the pain of seperation from you.[/quote]

I am so fortunate in that my family and friends are inspired by what I am doing and are totally supportive. They know they can come visit me. I don't know where you got the idea that family and friends can't come visit? And they also value the prayers I will be saying for them.

[quote]My love of Jesus in fact instead of leading me to lock myself away, makes me want to go out and preach the gospel to the world. I was given the gospel by a street preacher, not someone who locked themselves away. I want to engage others and in my old community, I even used to preach the gospel to Wiccans and others. When one loves Jesus, they want to bring others to Him. They want to have the opportunity to touch the lives of others. They do not want to lock themselves away. You are not to hide your light under a bushel. Prayer life is important, time alone with God is important, conversation and more. But you reman stilted in what you can truly do for God when you are locked away from others. A Christian should be praising God every day. No matter where they are, at work or passing out tracts in the street. [/quote]The angels are praising God every day, but they don't do it by standing on street corners - they do it by praying and singing to God - just like monks and nuns. There are Marthas and Marys in this world. You are obviously a Martha - that is great. I am a Mary - that is also great. The Lord loves us both.

[quote]God Bless you, I will pray for you.[/quote]
Thank you so much. One can never have too many prayers - that is why being a nun is a good thing. I will pray for you too, especially that God will heal your heart so that you don't feel so much pain and anger any more. It seems to go very deep.

Even though we might love Jesus, we also need to love others with the same compassion that He shows to us all every day. Otherwise we would all just stone the sinners (like the woman caught in aduletry) instead of forgiving them. Peace be with you, dear sister.
Annie

[Budge]

I dont see anyting wrong with prayer or even community but Ive said my piece about how here it is connected to a false religion of Catholicism.

I dont have much more to say here, have said it all....

I pray for the best for you, God bless you all, I will pray that you do come to the truth eventually.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1236111' date='Apr 9 2007, 11:12 AM']I dont see anyting wrong with prayer or even community but Ive said my piece about how here it is connected to a false religion of Catholicism.

I dont have much more to say here, have said it all....

I pray for the best for you, God bless you all, I will pray that you do come to the truth eventually.[/quote]
Budge, you've proven only that prayer and community are part of Catholicism. You've not shown at all that Catholicism is a false religion. So, for admitting that Catholics have prayer and community, I thank you.

[Budge]

The Mormons have prayer and community too--close knit families...do you think it makes their religion more valid?

Buddhists too...and so forth and so on...

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Budge' post='1236745' date='Apr 9 2007, 09:08 PM']The Mormons have prayer and community too--close knit families...do you think it makes their religion more valid?

Buddhists too...and so forth and so on...[/quote]

It's true that false religions like the Church of Latter Day Saints and Buddhists have community and prayer... but Christian faith communities should too! And that's one thing that Catholicism has down pat (especially in the religious life)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1236745' date='Apr 9 2007, 07:08 PM']The Mormons have prayer and community too--close knit families...do you think it makes their religion more valid?

Buddhists too...and so forth and so on...[/quote]
You're right. I just think it's nice to see that you're acknowledging something good and true in Catholicism.

Anyway, no, I don't think it necessarily makes them more valid, although certainly it's one of the many things that should come with the true religion. Anyway, my point was that since you haven't proven Catholicism as invalid, it sounds like you've only just complimented us, so thanks.

[Guest T-Bone]

Once again, subtlety is wasted.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Budge' post='1236745' date='Apr 9 2007, 08:08 PM']The Mormons have prayer and community too--close knit families...do you think it makes their religion more valid?

Buddhists too...and so forth and so on...[/quote]

Budge,

You failed to respond to the other half of that post.

He said that you never did show that Catholicism was a false religion, and you did not. You said you did, but you never did. If you would have shown us that then we all would have converted. You didn't even present that it was false because even if you would have did that we wouldn't have had a response for everything you said. And everyone here responded to every question you asked or every objection you put forth. Everything you had to say was refuted. You never did prove it was false. You simply said it was false. But you never proved it. Simply saying, "Catholicism is a false religion." does not prove that Catholicism is in fact a false religion.

J.M.J.

May God love you. Thank you for your prayers Budge, we'll be praying the same for you.

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Budge]

[quote]Simply saying, "Catholicism is a false religion." does not prove that Catholicism is in fact a false religion.[/quote]

The inverse is true as well, simply saying Catholicism is true does not make it so.