Extraterrestrial Life

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Truthseeker777' post='1217731' date='Mar 23 2007, 12:47 PM']Read the following verses:

Psalm 135:15-18 (King James Version)

15The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

16They have mouths, but they speak not; eyes have they, but they see not;

17They have ears, but they hear not; neither is there any breath in their mouths.

18They that make them are like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them.

[b]Think about Alien abdutions[/b]:

[u]Joel 2:9 (King James Version)
9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
[b]The question is not if there are BUT what to know about them as Christians.[/b]

Abductions are very real and there is to many coincidenses to deny this.
Aliens are an end time deception from satan himself and Christians should be informed about the thread of these evil buggers.

Abductees confirmed over and over,they smell like [b]SULPHUR[/b][/quote]

I knew this had to come up at some point. Here's my take:
[list]
[*]Supernatural beings exist
[*]Some of those supernatural beings are fallen angels, i.e. Satan and his minions
[*]Those beings [i]can[/i] take on deceptive appearances, e.g. "aliens"
[*][i]However[/i], if "aliens," i.e. extraterrestrial lifeforms exist, we can assume that a) they were created by God, and b) unless there was some equivalent of the Fall for those lifeforms, they are in a right relationship with God, however that expresses itself, and are therefore [i]not[/i] hostile to humans.
[/list]
As for sulfur, well, Yellowstone National Park smells like sulfur but I would hardly describe it as demonic.

My two cents.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1217734' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:57 PM']So, what "experiments and observations" would you perform on an extraterrestrial which has only been known to exist in science fiction? Based on faith, people are supporting SETI projects, but we are no closer to determining a percentage chance that these theoretical beings exist.[/quote]Observations and experiments? Let's see...
Observation 1 - the atomic elements that make up the creatures of earth are not known to be unique only to this particular planet and would not jibe with what we can observe and surmise in our theories of the creation of the Universe.
Observation 2 - science has observed how certain conditions, chemicals, heat, etc., have created basic protiens which are the building blocks of life.
Observation 3 - given the numbers of observable galaxies, solar systems, and planets, and observable conditions here on earth that may be rare, but not unique, it is unreasonable to believe that these same conditions CANNOT occur elsewhere.

There is more evidence and more logic to suggest that life may exist on other planets than logic and evidence to suggest that life is unique to Earth in all existence and the vastness of Creation. It is more problematical to defend a theory that Earthly life is completely unique, than rare or even common.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1217741' date='Mar 23 2007, 07:08 PM']As for sulfur, well, Yellowstone National Park smells like sulfur but I would hardly describe it as demonic.[/quote]

Yeah, try drinking from the "Fountain of Youth" in St. Augustine. Or just hang around any of the sprinklers in FL - very sulfuric.

But yeah, I agree with what you said about E.T.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217742' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:13 PM']Observations and experiments? Let's see...
Observation 1 - the atomic elements that make up the creatures of earth are not known to be unique only to this particular planet and would not jibe with what we can observe and surmise in our theories of the creation of the Universe.
Observation 2 - science has observed how certain conditions, chemicals, heat, etc., have created basic protiens which are the building blocks of life.
Observation 3 - given the numbers of observable galaxies, solar systems, and planets, and observable conditions here on earth that may be rare, but not unique, it is unreasonable to believe that these same conditions CANNOT occur elsewhere.

There is more evidence and more logic to suggest that life may exist on other planets than logic and evidence to suggest that life is unique to Earth in all existence and the vastness of Creation. It is more problematical to defend a theory that Earthly life is completely unique, than rare or even common.[/quote]

Life exists elsewhere in the solar system, if you define life as self-replicating molecular structures. I am speaking of intelligent life. If you believe in evolution, I do not see how you could not believe that their is intelligent life out there.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1217744' date='Mar 23 2007, 03:20 PM']Life exists elsewhere in the solar system, if you define life as self-replicating molecular structures. I am speaking of intelligent life. If you believe in evolution, I do not see how you could not believe that their is intelligent life out there.[/quote]
How intelligent? As intelligent as a dolphin, human, or bovine?

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217747' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:28 PM']How intelligent? As intelligent as a dolphin, human, or bovine?[/quote]

Why should it be limited? The Universe is very big.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217742' date='Mar 23 2007, 03:13 PM']Observations and experiments? Let's see...
Observation 1 - the atomic elements that make up the creatures of earth are not known to be unique only to this particular planet and would not jibe with what we can observe and surmise in our theories of the creation of the Universe.
Observation 2 - science has observed how certain conditions, chemicals, heat, etc., have created basic protiens which are the building blocks of life.
Observation 3 - given the numbers of observable galaxies, solar systems, and planets, and observable conditions here on earth that may be rare, but not unique, it is unreasonable to believe that these same conditions CANNOT occur elsewhere.[/quote]Observation 4: Evidence of life has not been observed outside of our planet.
[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217742' date='Mar 23 2007, 03:13 PM']There is more evidence and more logic to suggest that life may exist on other planets than logic and evidence to suggest that life is unique to Earth in all existence and the vastness of Creation. It is more problematical to defend a theory that Earthly life is completely unique, than rare or even common.[/quote]You may not find observation #4 compelling, but I really don't think your conclusions are any more than cheerleading. It is not "problematic" to believe that Earthly life is completely unique. It just happens to be the answer that the scientific method is providing us today. It's always subject to change if the proof exists, but we're talking about the observed universe.

Until we can actually see proof of life (i.e. anything from microbes to intelligent E.T.s), assigning a probability is just a shot in the dark. That's my only point.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1217751' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:34 PM']Observation 4: Evidence of life has not been observed outside of our planet.
You may not find observation #4 compelling, but I really don't think your conclusions are any more than cheerleading. It is not "problematic" to believe that Earthly life is completely unique. It just happens to be the answer that the scientific method is providing us today. It's always subject to change if the proof exists, but we're talking about the observed universe.

Until we can actually see proof of life (i.e. anything from microbes to intelligent E.T.s), assigning a probability is just a shot in the dark. That's my only point.[/quote]

Self-replicating amino acids have been observed on one of the moons of Jupiter, and elsewhere in the solar system, I believe. That, according to scientific consensus, is how life on Earth began.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1217751' date='Mar 23 2007, 03:34 PM']Until we can actually see proof of life (i.e. anything from microbes to intelligent E.T.s), assigning a probability is just a shot in the dark. That's my only point.[/quote]If I don't see it, it doesn't exist? We can't go to other solar systems and make observations of their conditions and chemical make-up so they don't exist.

We observed every point of light (or even a large percentage) and measured it's movement and have concluded that each of them is probably a star, not a shiney belt-buckle. Assigning a probablility is not just a 'shot in the dark'. Given that the Universe seems to be expanding from a single point, observations of light waves that give indication of similar chemical and atomic make up of other 'stars', how could the conditions of this blue orb be unique in all Creation. The more realistic question is really how rare or common Earth is.

Is God's love limited only to who God created on this particualar planet, or only to the Jews before Christ, or only to those who have been blessed to hear the Gospel with a mind and heart that hasn't been poisoned against Christianity by others or those giving a poor example of Christianity? There are many Christians who will believe that and tell you that all the Aztecs and Myans were born, lived, and died with no chance or faintest hope of ever knowing God in Heaven. They existed just to feed the animals and mine gold for later use by the Christians from Spain.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217756' date='Mar 23 2007, 01:51 PM']If I don't see it, it doesn't exist? We can't go to other solar systems and make observations of their conditions and chemical make-up so they don't exist.

We observed every point of light (or even a large percentage) and measured it's movement and have concluded that each of them is probably a star, not a shiney belt-buckle. Assigning a probablility is not just a 'shot in the dark'. Given that the Universe seems to be expanding from a single point, observations of light waves that give indication of similar chemical and atomic make up of other 'stars', how could the conditions of this blue orb be unique in all Creation. The more realistic question is really how rare or common Earth is.

Is God's love limited only to who God created on this particualar planet, or only to the Jews before Christ, or only to those who have been blessed to hear the Gospel with a mind and heart that hasn't been poisoned against Christianity by others or those giving a poor example of Christianity? There are many Christians who will believe that and tell you that all the Aztecs and Myans were born, lived, and died with no chance or faintest hope of ever knowing God in Heaven. They existed just to feed the animals and mine gold for later use by the Christians from Spain.[/quote]

Let me try to mediate:

Anomaly: there's a good chance that extraterrestrial life exists based on what we know about the universe.
Mateo el Feo: we haven't actually observed life outside of Earth.

You're both right, and in the case of Anomaly, can't really be proved wrong, so what are you arguing about? ;-)

[N/A Gone]

Ch. 7 of "Case for a creator" has an interesting angle here.

my fundi mom thinks that aliens are really demons and when we look and find them they are actually looking for earth to come get us

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217756' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:51 PM']If I don't see it, it doesn't exist? We can't go to other solar systems and make observations of their conditions and chemical make-up so they don't exist.[/quote]Anomaly, I think you're attacking a straw man. I did not say E.T. don't exist. Feel free to re-read my posts. I said that it is premature to attempt to assign a probability to such an existance.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217756' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:51 PM']We observed every point of light (or even a large percentage) and measured it's movement and have concluded that each of them is probably a star, not a shiney belt-buckle. Assigning a probablility is not just a 'shot in the dark'. Given that the Universe seems to be expanding from a single point, observations of light waves that give indication of similar chemical and atomic make up of other 'stars', how could the conditions of this blue orb be unique in all Creation. The more realistic question is really how rare or common Earth is.[/quote]Shiny belt-buckles aside, the "realistic question" is a good one. We can agree upon it. I just believe that the answer to the question is "to be determined", and you seem to think it's already answered (e.g. "probably", etc).

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217756' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:51 PM']Is God's love limited only to who God created on this particualar planet, or only to the Jews before Christ, or only to those who have been blessed to hear the Gospel with a mind and heart that hasn't been poisoned against Christianity by others or those giving a poor example of Christianity? There are many Christians who will believe that and tell you that all the Aztecs and Myans were born, lived, and died with no chance or faintest hope of ever knowing God in Heaven. They existed just to feed the animals and mine gold for later use by the Christians from Spain.[/quote]This whole Aztec/Mayan thing is a pretty emotional argument...and a demonstrably false one. The Spanish missionaries knew that Aztecs and Mayans (not to mention all humanity) were made in the image and likeness of God, and that they could be saved and enjoy eternal life. That's Christianity 101. In contrast, the Aztecs and Mayans thought that their gods wanted human sacrifices in exchange for a little more rain. Apparently, the rain gods even preferred their victims to be children.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Pre-Columbian_sacrifice"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifi...mbian_sacrifice[/url]

Are we done arguing by emotion? OK.

If you want to get into theological discussions of E.T. (e.g. your question, "Does God love ET?) , the real question isn't whether he/she/it exists. It is whether he/she/it is destined for eternal life. The existence of an eternal soul is a matter of faith. No scientific test is going to prove that animals or E.T. has an eternal soul. All the amino acids, proteins, and SETI experiments in the world aren't going to answer that question.

PS: thanks to Ken for being the mediator. Sadly, my stubborn side gets the best of me.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1217778' date='Mar 23 2007, 04:54 PM']Anomaly, I think you're attacking a straw man. I did not say E.T. don't exist. Feel free to re-read my posts. I said that it is premature to attempt to assign a probability to such an existance.

Shiny belt-buckles aside, the "realistic question" is a good one. We can agree upon it. I just believe that the answer to the question is "to be determined", and you seem to think it's already answered (e.g. "probably", etc).

This whole Aztec/Mayan thing is a pretty emotional argument...and a demonstrably false one. The Spanish missionaries knew that Aztecs and Mayans (not to mention all humanity) were made in the image and likeness of God, and that they could be saved and enjoy eternal life. That's Christianity 101. In contrast, the Aztecs and Mayans thought that their gods wanted human sacrifices in exchange for a little more rain. Apparently, the rain gods even preferred their victims to be children.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice#Pre-Columbian_sacrifice"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifi...mbian_sacrifice[/url]

Are we done arguing by emotion? OK.

If you want to get into theological discussions of E.T. (e.g. your question, "Does God love ET?) , the real question isn't whether he/she/it exists. It is whether he/she/it is destined for eternal life. The existence of an eternal soul is a matter of faith. No scientific test is going to prove that animals or E.T. has an eternal soul. All the amino acids, proteins, and SETI experiments in the world aren't going to answer that question.

PS: thanks to Ken for being the mediator. Sadly, my stubborn side gets the best of me. [/quote]So what about the Myans and Aztecs in the centureis BEFORE the Spainish got there? It's not an emotion argument, but a practical argument from real life.

Ken,
The "argument" started when Mateo felt that it is/was pointless to even discuss this because he has issue with the hypothetical.

The core question is if there is 'intelligent' life, can they have an eternal soul or not? The Myans are a good example because they were a civilization that was seperated by geography and time, from any possibility of having any meaningful contact with Christianity. Christians tend to have a simplistic and myopic perspective that all humanity either was Jewish or rejected God, or after Christ, was Christian or rejected God. Maybe that is a valid and sound theological concept. Maybe not...

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217807' date='Mar 23 2007, 05:44 PM']So what about the Myans and Aztecs in the centureis BEFORE the Spainish got there? It's not an emotion argument, but a practical argument from real life.[/quote]OK, I think I understand your question. I just thought that the whole "Mayans are for tending sheep and mining gold" thing was a bit emotional.

To answer: unlike E.T., we know by faith that all of humanity (including Mayans and Aztecs) have eternal souls. If you want to discuss the fate of these souls, let's start by looking at a quote from an 1863 papal encyclical (highlights are mine):
[quote name='QUANTO CONFICIAMUR MOERORE' date=' POPE PIUS IX']Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. [b]There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion[/b]. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, [b]they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace[/b]. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.[/quote]Does that address your question?

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217807' date='Mar 23 2007, 05:44 PM']Ken,
The "argument" started when Mateo felt that it is/was pointless to even discuss this because he has issue with the hypothetical.[/quote]I really think this is a warped presentation of our differences. I said it was premature to assign a probability to the existence of ET. Discuss what you like, but your arguments have done nothing to contradict my claim. Heck, prove me wrong: throw out a probability, and then use the scientific method to defend your value. (Note: I know this has been attempted in the past: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation"]link[/url].)

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217807' date='Mar 23 2007, 05:44 PM']The core question is if there is 'intelligent' life, can they have an eternal soul or not? The Myans are a good example because they were a civilization that was seperated by geography and time, from any possibility of having any meaningful contact with Christianity. Christians tend to have a simplistic and myopic perspective that all humanity either was Jewish or rejected God, or after Christ, was Christian or rejected God. Maybe that is a valid and sound theological concept. Maybe not...[/quote]The reason I don't think that the Mayan comparison is useful is that Christians have always believed that all humanity had eternal souls. Even if we found ET, we'd still have to ask if they had an eternal soul.

[jeffpugh]

What I'm really interested about is the controversy about crop-circles in this argument. People say that all are man-made, others say only some, and argue buy they way the crops are compressed and the complexity and congruency of the design. Other people say something such 'its lightning'.