Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1217916' date='Mar 23 2007, 06:06 PM']Did you know the Lady of Guadalupe is given the name of an Aztec goddess as well? Really I see the marian worship in Latin America as simply different forms of pagan religions. Remember I did the "goddess" junk while UU, aint nothing new to me! [url="http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/guadalup.html"]VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE AND AZTEC gODDESS TOO?[/url] This is NOT good.[/quote] Budge, God uses what we call inculturation. He sees things that are significant to a certain culture and He uses those signs and symbols to get across His meaning. Our Lady of Guadalupe was dressed as an Aztec princess so that the Aztecs would see royalty, because Mary is royal. She was dressed with a sash of pregnancy, so that the Aztecs would understand that she had a Child. She was crushing a serpent, one of their gods, and standing on the moon, one of their gods, and blocking out the sun, one of their gods, as if to say, "these gods of yours are trampled under the feet of the Gospel," and yet, she has her head down in humility because the real message she bears is her son, who conquers all their gods. God picked this sign for a reason and designed it in such a way that it would speak to them. The very fact that she is crushing their gods should prove to you that she is not demonic. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 23, 2007 Share Posted March 23, 2007 No it is not good, you believe anything that trashes the Bride of Christ, Mother Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1217916' date='Mar 23 2007, 08:06 PM']Did you know the Lady of Guadalupe is given the name of an Aztec goddess as well? Really I see the marian worship in Latin America as simply different forms of pagan religions. Remember I did the "goddess" junk while UU, aint nothing new to me! [url="http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/guadalup.html"]VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE AND AZTEC gODDESS TOO?[/url] This is NOT good.[/quote] "Son of God" is also a title used by Egyptian pharaohs, Roman Caesars, and Chinese dynasts. "Lord of Hosts" was a common title for Mesopotamian and Phoenician gods, including Baal and the deity kings of Persia. The Hebrew name "Yahweh" comes from four symbols that, individualy, make up the four classical pagan elements: earth, fire, water, air. Cults in Egypt worshipped Osiris as a risen god and they ate a ritual meal of bread and wine. The Greek mystery cult of Mithras believed they were saved by the blood of their slain and resurrected god. So if we see Marian devotion as a form of paganism, by your logic, Christianity might as well be too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1217239' date='Mar 22 2007, 10:49 AM']On this same kind of mindset, have you ever thought that you could be worshiping your anti-catholic addiction? You seem to be mighty [b]devoted[/b], and [b]devote[/b] alot of time to it. You feed your addiction in the morning, you feed your addiction in the afternoon, and you feed your addiction at night. Wouldn't your time be better spent praying more to Christ, than posting hate against His beautiful Holy Bride all the time?[/quote] Indeed. Every Anti-Catholic post seems to be a shrine to this idol of yours. [quote name='Sirklawd' post='1217271' date='Mar 22 2007, 11:42 AM']im going to take this oppertunity to use some common sense. My own common sense tells me im wasting my time. these people that do this. that kneel down and light candles and place flowers in front of crying statues, paint smears, burn marks, and various potato chips that may or may not look like a religious figure do not do so because they worship these things. God and Jesus and everything they believe in is not suddenly replaced by a cookie sheet or a statue. These people do not pray "OH GREAT COOKIE SHEET PLEASE REMOVE MY SINS AND LET ME LIVE WITH YOU IN HEAVEN!". This is rediculous, as is your arguement. The people who kneel in front of these things do so because they honestly believe that it is a miracle (whether it is or not is not the point at the moment). To them these things are absolute proof of the existence of God and Jesus, and it is a direct mark. a direct work of the Lord. A a tiny footprint of the infinite lord that is in fact visible proof. These people go there and kneel not at the cookie sheet, but to see God's work. The same exact thing happens to the man who kneels down in a field of grass and stares up at the big blue open sky to prayer and give thanks. He is not worshiping the sky. He is worshipping God, who created the sky. To some people seeing the sky is proof enough of God's existence. To others, it is the image of Mary on a cookie sheet. They do not worship a cookie sheet, they worship God who made the mircale happen. A similar example is the man who prays before a crucifix. That man does not worship the wood and glue that composes that particular crucifix. That man does not worship even the artist who spent time carving out the model of Jesus. That man worships GOD. The crucifix is only the focus because of the memories associated with it. you are absolutely correct in one part though. If someone somewhere is worshipping a cookie sheet instead of Jesus, clearly that person has made a tremendous mistake.[/quote] This is really down to earth. I like it. Take heed to these words, eh? One more thing Budge. With all due respect, don't bash Our Lady before looking into ALL the sides here! You haven't even presented any FACTS! The fact that the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is bowing her head and has her hands folded in prayer shows that she does not desire to be worshiped, but is worshiping God herself! If you take the time to look upon the image, read about what we know, you will find it maybe even slightly interesting. Ever considered how the cactus fibre of the tilma (which is said to last 90 years at most) has held the image for 500 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1217975' date='Mar 23 2007, 08:24 PM']Indeed. Every Anti-Catholic post seems to be a shrine to this idol of yours. This is really down to earth. I like it. Take heed to these words, eh? One more thing Budge. With all due respect, don't bash Our Lady before looking into ALL the sides here! You haven't even presented any FACTS! The fact that the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is bowing her head and has her hands folded in prayer shows that she does not desire to be worshiped, but is worshiping God herself! If you take the time to look upon the image, read about what we know, you will find it maybe even slightly interesting. Ever considered how the cactus fibre of the tilma (which is said to last 90 years at most) has held the image for 500 years?[/quote] Or perhaps more amazingly, how is it that the cactus fibers themselves are colored...not painted over, but actually of different colors, as if dyed. Nobody could die anything with that precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 [b]This argument has denigrated from the use of statues, placing objects before the image, the translation of a single verse, and now to the legitimacy of the devotion itself[/b]. Christians for centuries when encountering aspects of Divine Truth in any culture would work to incorporate that truth into their education of the one true Faith. The reason why the Spanish were so influential for example was because a supposed “deity” whom reigned as their king for centuries but then left saying he would return in a hundred years to reclaim his throne. A hundred years exactly comes the Spanish landing on their shores with the same colored skin as their “deity” with their Catholic Missionaries to bring all peoples under the throne of Christ the King. Before the hundred years were up there was a usual apparition among the local religious clerics where they saw the world in turmoil as then a woman appeared atop of the moon crowned in stars opening her arms to the people crushing a serpent’s head; which really surprised Spanish Missionaries. If you read the [b]Apocalypse of Saint John[/b] ([i]Book of Revelation[/i]) you will find the symbols that they witnessed is reflective of the gospel message and this writing. Where the throne of Christ the King is being described which then is described the great Ark which is then described as a woman standing atop of the moon crowned with a crown of stars, this is the Blessed Virgin. Now someone points out that Guadalupe translates to crushing snakes and this is the correct translation of the apparition. This is because in this apparition the Blessed Virgin tells the people that she is the one that would crush the head of the serpent, which is in scripture. So because of this the Missionaries when naming it they gave it this title. So the fact that there is local legend about it is totally inconsequential. Although, if you wish to denounce apparitions then we have to denounce Saint Paul the Apostle as an apostle or as a true writer of scripture since his conversion was brought about by an apparition of the crucified Christ. Moreover, we have to discount the entire [b]Apocalypse of Saint John[/b] ([i]Book of Revelation[/i]) since if you read the first few words it writes that he is having a vision. Then we could move into the early Church Fathers that write even more about apparitions such as Our Lady of the Pillar occurring within the first hundred years or so of the Church. So to denounce apparitions as a whole one denounces scripture. Moreover let’s look at what this apparition caused. It caused an entire people to convert to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church which is the ground and pillar of truth, the true Church founded by our Blessed Lord. Even looking at it from a non-Catholic outlook you still have to admit that being exposed to Christian ideology is something better than being exposed to pagan ideology. In fact missionary activity in Mexico is causing social instability and the people are becoming less Christian. People are starting to few that there are so many different beliefs and because they are being told Catholics are plainly wrong, then they are starting to see their forefathers are eternally dammed. Then with the advent of a strong occultist activity in Mexico they will slowly start to adapt such into their religious beliefs. The best thing that can happen for Mexico right now are some Saints and good Bishops. If one looks at what proofs we have of the apparition lets look to the imprinting of the actual image of Guadalupe. It was created without any known pigment type, since we can look at how a drawling was made and figure out in what manner it was created. The image is too exact since if you look into the eyes of the image you can see the people standing about in the room. There is no outline to the image so it couldn’t have been painted onto the image since artists have to make an outline in their image first. Then the remarkable fact that the actual canvas, a piece of cloth that degrades normally after a few years, has lasted a few hundred years exposed to the elements. Then you have the personal conversions and happenings just surrounding the Guadalupe Image. If you claim the Catholic Church fabricated this in the day and age it was done, you are claiming something that is utterly impossible. For it is impossible to produce the same results even in the modern world. So very much so, the devotion is valid and a true means of approaching our Blessed Lord. It is the manner that He intended for the Blessed Virgin spoke “my soul doth magnify the Lord.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 [b] Do You See Anything Wrong With This Picture?[/b] [img]http://www.geocities.com/carrdero/600xPopupGallery.jpg[/img] 1. The little girl seems more entranced with listening to her iPod than the miracle in front of her. 2. The older woman’s desparate attempt to be charged a “child’s admission” to see this miracle is downright embarrassing. 3. The bowl of refreshments needs refilling. 4. Plants belong in the sun (not in the shade) if they are expected to grow. 5. She’s wearing pink sneakers after Labor Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 No comment, carrdero... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 If this is the non-Catholic response then needless to say that the non-Catholic side concedes their case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1218943' date='Mar 24 2007, 09:53 PM']If this is the non-Catholic response then needless to say that the non-Catholic side concedes their case...[/quote] Or he's not really taking Budge's side and just wants everyone to not take themselves so seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 [quote name='carrdero' post='1218847' date='Mar 24 2007, 06:26 PM'][b] Do You See Anything Wrong With This Picture?[/b] [img]http://www.geocities.com/carrdero/600xPopupGallery.jpg[/img] 1. The little girl seems more entranced with listening to her iPod than the miracle in front of her. 2. The older woman’s desparate attempt to be charged a “child’s admission” to see this miracle is downright embarrassing. 3. The bowl of refreshments needs refilling. 4. Plants belong in the sun (not in the shade) if they are expected to grow. 5. She’s wearing pink sneakers after Labor Day.[/quote] Thanks, I appreciated that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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