Celibate Nuns?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1219683' date='Mar 25 2007, 09:04 PM']Actually, monasticism or at least the monastic way of life, already existed for women prior to Abba Anthony. After all, his sister joined a monastic community while anthony was still alive. They may have existed all the way back to apostolic times. One of the monasteries that abba anthony founded is still in existence almost 17 centuries later.[/quote]

Really? Please provide more about this? My understanding is that some engaged in a similar lifestyle but St. Antony [with the desert fathers and desert mothers] was the first to practice such modern day monasticism.

[quote]Saint Anthony the Great is cited by Athanasius as one of these early 'eremetic monks.'[/quote]

[Starets]

Oh, I audited a course on the philosophical and theological foundations of early monasticism. It started with Plato and included Origen, Cassian, Evagruis Ponticus, Dionysius the Areopagite and of course saints Pachomius and Anthony and concluded with St. Benedict. It was taken through St. John's seminary in Minnesota. It was taught by Fr. Luke Dysinger, OSB, of Valyermo. One of the points he made was that there were quasimonastic comunities of women already in existence at the time of Abba Anthony, but thier exact nature is a matter of historical speculation.

[Budge]

Ill answer this stuff, then I have article to share below.

I was told to become a nun in my family....which was hilarious because I was a "heathen" by age 10, and while I was UU by age 17/18, {My parents while I was still in college would still have me go to Mass} my father would tell me to join the convent because "they would take care of you" {this was during a bout of post-college unemployment I had} and "pay for your education"

So the only thing that probably saved me from pressure to join up was the fact I was ANOTHER religion. Imagine if I was still Catholic, what I may have bought into.
I was literally surrounded by nuns as a child, the family friend who was a nun visited us constantly. She was one of those Vatican 2 liberal type nuns, though I know she wore a habit. She was the one who left when she realized as a nun-professionally trained in this case, she was one of the lucky ones they sent to college instead of toilet cleaning, she was raking in tens of thousands of dollars for the church, when she was living like a pauper, I guess she got smart and got out. Because she had so much education was my father's assertation that I could "get a real great education via the convent". What my father didnt realize was that is a crapshoot, someone just as smart could be denied graduate school and be forced into becoming a professional floor cleaner instead.

The nuns I had for teachers I noticed something, the young ones still had some idealism and light in their eyes, while the older ones, seemed burned out, and depressed.

I dont agree with the "be dead" to the world stuff. Being forced to cut off your friends and family is a cult technique done in other cults where one of the biggest things is for people to cut ways with loved ones. Christians are to be the SALT of the world. WHat good is Salt if its packed away in a box with a lock on it? Yes I know most of the women are novices, and such. Course one wonders if a lady has spent even 5 short years in the convent, and is 28 and all her friends have jobs and such, many would be hestitant to leave wondering where they would go or how they could even support themselves. Unless a nun has a supportive family or friends on the outside world, how could they LEAVE even on the FINANCIAL LEVEL?

One thing I find ironic is that the wealthy Catholic church before even taking these women in demand that they be DEBT free. Which is almost impossible for any young person who goes to college. In the old days I know they used to require dowry's dont know if that is true or not anymore.

Monasticism is not something that came out of Christian but is based on past pagan aseticism and cults.

There is a direct link even to Rome's Vestal Virgins, except their time was not life long but set period of time, temple "virgins" that tended the "flame" [in this case often times tending the altars]

[Budge]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=65991&st=0&gopid=1219842&#entry1219842"]I STARTED NEW THREAD ON NUNS[/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Future nun (God willing) jumps on board the discussion!

Everything in me used to revolt against the thought of the cloistered life. I didn't understand it. Looking back, now I see that I was clinging too hard to the maxim, "Pray as though everything depended on God and work as though it all depended on man." I believed in the power of prayer, but...I'd rather do some work as well. Just to make sure.

"To make sure of what?" I challenged myself. And the answer surfaced, reluctantly. "Just in case prayer isn't enough."

But prayer is love and it's always enough. I know that now. Prayer and love are inseparable.

However, people love in different ways. Some people are called to lead active lives in the world, working for God in a variety of different ways. Some are called to share in the holiness of marriage. And some are called to 'watch and pray' in silence and solitude. In each of those situations, we try to create the best conditions for a fulfilled and holy life, in the same way that you use greenhouses to create the best conditions for the growth of certain types of flowers. When he prayed, 'Jesus withdrew to a lonely place' - and this is why enclosure is so crucial to the nuns.

"I will lead her into the desert and speak to her heart," God says of the community of believers in the Book of Hosea. Girls who are called to be nuns accept this invitation and go willingly into that desert - which is not as horrible or as frightening as Budge seems to think. One of the reasons why Carmelite spirituality calls to me so much is because of its focus on the desert, a place of silence, a place of solitude, a place of prayer - and a place of love. When I lived in Saudi Arabia I used to really look forward to trips into the desert, especially when we went to camp overnight. I know English people in Saudi who were frightened by the desert - its starkness and its perceived aridity and the deep silence that engulfs you when you are several hundred miles away from the nearest town or village. But I found the desert beautiful. It was one of my favourite places to pray and now that it is gone I miss it so much. England doesn't compete.

The desert of the Carmelite monastery is only figurative, but it is equally beautiful. The women I met there radiate peace and joy. Is it always easy for them? No. They admit that with great frankness. But no work is ever 'easy' if you are truly determined to give everything you have for it. Not marriage. Not anything. The many nuns that I've met have confided that they feel much closer to their families and friends where they are now, hidden in the heart of the Church, than they ever did before. These weren't just easy words. Love is one thing that can't be feigned, not in those conditions, and the whole monastery was redolent with it.

Of course, this life will be barren and painful if you're not called to it. But if God wants you to live for Him in a particular way, He won't abandon you - He gives you the grace that you need for it. My family and I will probably struggle in the days preceding and following my entrance, but we have complete trust that the same Lord who called me will also provide for us. Jesus' invitations are always tough, but as an old priest used to joke, in His way He is like a mafia boss - He makes you an offer you just can't refuse.

I am happy with my calling. This isn't idealism, Budge. No one can spend time in an enclosed monastery and still come out with romantic illusions about the religious life. Any idealism I did have was killed off when I was scrabbling about in the dirt in the kitchen garden, trying to string those pesky beans. Or maybe when I went to the bathroom in the middle of the night and encountered one of the nuns in her blue and purple Eeyore pyjamas.

As for talking to cloistered nuns...you can. If you write to a nearby monastery, they will either correspond with you or invite you to come and chat with them for an hour or so. They can describe their life better than I can.

[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/DyspraxicTeens047.jpg[/img]

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[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/DyspraxicTeens048.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/n36922648_33025747_6216.jpg[/img]

Edited March 26, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Budge]

Well we will see.
[quote]Everything in me used to revolt against the thought of the cloistered life. I didn't understand it. Looking back, now I see that I was clinging too hard to the maxim, "Pray as though everything depended on God and work as though it all depended on man." I believed in the power of prayer, but...I'd rather do some work as well. Just to make sure.[/quote]

Your mind was trying to warn you, when it used to revolt that living that way was not natural. Look you are young and idealistic, I think the fact that you want to live for God is more then commendable, but the Catholic church uses that natural idealism of young girls and boys, and twists it, having them sign up for lives that God never intended.

One thing too, you are giving up a husband and children when you could have both and a life JUST as DEDICATED to GOD. Take it from women who couldnt have children...you may not feel the loss at age 25 but you will feel it at age 40.

One can live a prayerful life outside of a monastery. In fact when one is in a true Christian community and involved with others, there is strong prayers to be done for those one cares and and loves. I know within the convent that nuns are taught "detachment", and I talk about this in the other thread, how they are trained not to be "too close" to anyone. I beleive even the imposed silence of the cloisters hurts rather then helps. Yes one needs time alone with God, but to live life in silent coldness hurts people rather then helps. This is another way they subvert your joy and and even your personality.

While I believe one needs to take a quiet time with God everyday and there is nothing wrong with that, the ENFORCED SILENCE in Catholic religious houses and retreats twists and subverts human beings. Instead of showing love to fellow man, you get SILENCE, and this is based on more false teachings of MYSTERY BABYLON, the false GO INSIDE YOURSELF stuff of selfishness. Forcing a GROUP of HUMAN BEINGS who are together NOT TO TALK to one another is horrible. It is about control. If a person wants to be alone go be alone but dont be alone ignoring others to be "holy"...

This is more based in false aseticism and pagan detachment then being called to live a life for God interacting with others. Jesus SPOKE with people, he was involved with their daily lives. Yes he took time alone with God, but he never meant for this.

When I was Catholic, I was invited to a FOUR DAY retreat, for lay women that was going to be held at a convent. She told me one thing..."No talking was allowed for the entire four days" I said to her, "while I understand some prayer time and quiet but that is insane!" She then went on about how it made her more holy. I told her that it would make me uncomfortable to be spending days with people I couldnt even talk to, and that I could live in a bus station for four days and get more out of the experience because I could actually communicate with those around me. I told her there is no way I could go. Now I am a person that prays everyday, a lot of the time even while doing other things but there was nothing good about the above to me.

How does one love, when ones personality is repressed, when one is only allowed to talk one hour a day--that is often the case in many cloistered convents, when inherently you stay strangers to one another? Also the idea of suffering earning salvation is inherent in these places. As you wake up at 5 am everyday, subjected to an endless number of drudge work, sometimes being put to work for the monstery or convents business like the monks who sell fruitcake worldwide {some of which make millions of dollars}, they will tell you that you are working your way to heaven, which is wrong and a lie against the gospel of grace.

Jesus never called for anyone to live in the desert for all of their lives. To be honest with you, I believe this departure from the world is based on having a person focus more inwardly on THEMSELVES...a selfishness of a type. The pagan ascetics promoted it for people to "go inward". This connects even to false Catholic contemplative prayer...which has its direct links in New Ageism.

Ive met personalities like this even in the real world. Psychologists would call them Schizoids, who want nothing to do with anyone or as little as possible. NO Im not saying nuns are Schizoids, but this is NOT a normal way to live or one that God wanted.

The Indian gurus who stop talking for 50 years while they are on their nail beds, are doing the same thing as the contemplative nuns who speak only one hour a day.

I am sure you love the desert given your history, I cannot stand to be away from green trees, water and grass because of my upbringing. We all come to love what we know. However speaking of deserts is one thing is they are BARREN. How does a desert bear fruit? Think about that one in Biblical context.

The nuns you met very well could be happy women, but they as I said are making the best of a situation as many human beings learn to adapt to different things. There is no way they are closer to their families if they never see them. They may have deep love for their families but I know even living long distance from many of my relatives and this with open number of phone calls and letters, that when you never see someone over a series of years, you do truly come to know each other a lot less.

You speak of this being hard on the women, and Im glad you admit that. But think about this, WHY IS IT NECESSARY? Life is harsh enough with financial problems and health problems and death, why add to its pain? Why would God desire virbant, loving women to lock themselves away from the people they could touch on a day to day basis? This of course refers back to the cloistered type of nun. Dont you realize as a young woman, and especially if you have your health, how many people's lives you could change for the better if you do not lock yourself away? How many of those people are you cheating by not being available to them? Sure Im glad you know the realities, of dealing with the drudge of life, that occurs everywhere, but I certainly believe you are locking yourself away from the joys of life too.

Why do you feel God wants you to be closed up in a monastery the rest of your life? When you could do so much more for people being out in it?

You know I can see the appeal of all of this to a young person...communal living--never be alone again=-especially into todays disconnected world, I bet this is one of the HUGEST selling points the monasteries have, allowing the church to take care of you, so you never have to worry about seeking employment or the troubles of this world, the supposely altruistic draw, believing you are living for God.

But think about this, where ever in the Bible, did Jesus set up monasteries or convents or tell Christians to LOCK themselves away from the world?
[b]
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.[/b]

[Anomaly]

Budge,
How do you explain these Scriptures?

11But He said to them, "(J)Not all men can accept this statement, but (K)only those to whom it has been given.

12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." (Matthew 19:10-12, NASB)

[Budge]

That has nothing to do with convents and monasteries. There are people who WILL never marry, I have three friends who never have and they are going to hit 40 pretty soon.

Some people have no sexual feelings, and stay celibate even on in the workaday world...MY relative of mine has NEVER DATED....ever. She is a normal functioning adult with a good job. Just not interested.

Some people to do work for God like missionaries etc, may forgo marriage to focus on those things.

Nothing about that verse says CONVENT OR MONESTERY or celibacy being forced on any group of people.

What does this verse mean to you?

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 [b]Forbidding to marry, [/b][and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Budge

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1219871' date='Mar 26 2007, 10:47 AM']1Ti 4:3 [b]Forbidding to marry, [/b][and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.[/quote]

Nuns [b]choose[/b] not to marry and spend their lives praying , and you find it a bad thing??? Why am I not surprised. Anything you can't understand , you immediately condemn.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1219877' date='Mar 26 2007, 08:57 AM']Nuns [b]choose[/b] not to marry and spend their lives praying , and you find it a bad thing??? Why am I not surprised. Anything you can't understand , you immediately condemn.[/quote]
Hear hear!

None of these women is forced into the life they live ... no priest is either, for that matter. The church merely says, "These are the conditions for living out this calling. If you choose to enter this life, this is how you will live." The discernment process for either calling is pretty rigorous -- no one gets into the priesthood or a religious order without knowing what is expected, and without having multiple opportunities to opt out.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]One thing too, you are giving up a husband and children when you could have both and a life JUST as DEDICATED to GOD.[/quote]I made it very clear in my first post that marriage is also a way to holiness and that it is just as valuable as religious life. But marriage is a sacred calling from God, not a career choice. Not everyone is called to that way of holiness. I'm one of the women who is being asked to take a different path.

[quote]the Catholic church uses that natural idealism of young girls and boys, and twists it, having them sign up for lives that God never intended.[/quote]

Not quite. I know young people who applied to enter a convent or a monastery and were told that the life was not for them. There are examples of that on Vocation Station. The discernment process for the religious life is like falling in love: entrance can only happen if there is compatibility there. No pressure is ever put on an aspirant to become a full-fledged religious. It is a calling and a choice that is characterised by a tremendous freedom, which Therese of Lisieux referred to as 'a holy daring'.

[quote]One can live a prayerful life outside of a monastery. In fact when one is in a true Christian community and involved with others, there is strong prayers to be done for those one cares and and loves.[/quote]I know that.

[quote]I know within the convent that nuns are taught "detachment", and I talk about this in the other thread, how they are trained not to be "too close" to anyone.[/quote]

That's not true. I've spoken to a lot of enclosed nuns and read several books on this subject. They are not supposed to become possessive and 'clingy', but in many respects they are far closer to their friends and loved ones than they were before they entered. This is not a relaxing of the rules that follows on from Vatican II. As the Carmelite nun and spiritual writer Ruth Burrows has pointed out in her book [i]Carmel[/i], there are plenty of examples of close friendships between consecrated religious that date from long before Vatican II. The wonderful, life-changing friendship that blossomed between St Francis and St Clare of Assisi, for example. The friendship that Therese of Lisieux enjoyed with Sister Pauline, whom Therese referred to as 'my beloved little mother'. The many playful friendships that St Bernadette formed with other nuns in the convent at Nevers. She and her friends used to love pranks and jokes. These were all healthy and vibrant relationships.

It should also be noted that in her letters to the prioress of a certain monastery, St Teresa of Avila cautioned her against allowing a particular two sisters to spend much time together, as they were having a negative influence on each other. The mere fact that Teresa felt the need to warn the prioress against this suggests that it was the norm for sisters to visit one another and talk. This is shown by the Carmelite rule and a wealth of literature dating from the time of the discalced reformation. Some monasteries have advocated the kind of masochistic spiritual mutilation that you speak of, but they were wrong to do so. It is neither normal nor healthy, and this has been recognised by religious for centuries. Some nuns, such as St Catherine of Siena, were actually rebuked for being too hard on themselves.

[quote]Yes one needs time alone with God, but to live life in silent coldness hurts people rather then helps. This is another way they subvert your joy and and even your personality. [/quote]The silence isn't cold. It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever known. It reminded me of a line from one of favourite hymns: "And His mercy was as gentle as silence."

[quote]the ENFORCED SILENCE in Catholic religious houses and retreats twists and subverts human beings.[/quote]

The silence is not enforced. There is no religious order in the Church that has an actual vow of silence. You are allowed to talk whenever you see speech as necessary - over the course of your work, when another sister or brother needs comfort, etc. I saw this for myself when I was in the Carmel. One of the nuns' father had recently died. The other sisters were very sweet and attentive to her in a number of different ways. Chocolates were left anonymously at her place in the dining room, sisters offered to sit up with her at night if she felt upset or lonely, and of course the nuns paused to talk to her as they went about their day to see if she was all right.

But silence can also be healing. It's nothing to be afraid of, Budge. Those nuns actually have a better appreciation for speech and sound than we do out in the world - every word they say [i]matters[/i], listening to music in the dining room becomes a real joy, and the sound of the birds and the wind outside becomes a much more acute pleasure for the ears.

[quote]If a person wants to be alone go be alone but dont be alone ignoring others to be "holy"...[/quote]No one is ignored. Every sister in a religious community is cherished as if she is the only person in existence. The aim is to love your sisters as God loves them.

[quote]Jesus SPOKE with people, he was involved with their daily lives. Yes he took time alone with God, but he never meant for this.[/quote]

The active apostolate is valuable also - but it's not for everyone, just as marriage is not a universal vocation. You are falling into the same trap that I was once in, believing that prayer alone isn't good for anything.

[quote]When I was Catholic, I was invited to a FOUR DAY retreat, for lay women that was going to be held at a convent.[/quote]

Just four days? That's not very much.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]She told me one thing..."No talking was allowed for the entire four days" I said to her, "while I understand some prayer time and quiet but that is insane!" She then went on about how it made her more holy. I told her that it would make me uncomfortable to be spending days with people I couldnt even talk to, and that I could live in a bus station for four days and get more out of the experience because I could actually communicate with those around me.[/quote]This could mean one of two things, possibly both. a.) Your vocation is to be active in the world, and b.) You are frightened of silence. Four days of quiet wouldn't have hurt your prayer life, Budge. As I've pointed out, it's a very short space of time. It's just a drop in the ocean, really, and it could have given you some valuable time for uninterrupted prayer and contemplation. When that woman spoke to you, you had already decided what was best for you - which isn't always a good thing. You should never be afraid of a challenge to your spiritual life. Even if your mission [i]is[/i] an active one, a silent retreat here and there doesn't hurt.

[quote]How does one love, when ones personality is repressed, when one is only allowed to talk one hour a day--that is often the case in many cloistered convents, when inherently you stay strangers to one another?[/quote]

By your own admission you've never been inside a cloistered monastery. How would you know? As St Catherine of Siena wrote, "If you are what you are called to be you will set the world ablaze." If God calls you to dedicate your life to Him in the monastery, you will reach personal fulfilment. Your personality won't be repressed; it will shine forth. All the sisters in the Carmel where I visited have unique and distinctive personalities. One is a real tomboy who loves to climb trees, another is a musicologist, a third likes to compile scrapbooks of Johnny Cash, a fourth is never happier than when she is painting...they're all different and they love each other for it.

[quote]The Indian gurus who stop talking for 50 years while they are on their nail beds, are doing the same thing as the contemplative nuns who speak only one hour a day. [/quote]No, they are not. Nails hurt. Silence doesn't.

[quote]I am sure you love the desert given your history, I cannot stand to be away from green trees, water and grass because of my upbringing. We all come to love what we know.[/quote]

That's not true. As I said in my first post, I know English people in Saudi who really dislike the desert - including people who brought up there as children, like me. When we went on camping trips several of the other children would get bored or frightened. I never was.

[quote]However speaking of deserts is one thing is they are BARREN. How does a desert bear fruit? Think about that one in Biblical context. [/quote]Actually, deserts are far from barren. They are teeming with life. There are flowers and plants and even water - if you know where to look. Most people unfamiliar with desert landscape could stamp all over the place and not find anything. If you gave me fifteen minutes in a place like Bani Sa'ad, I would be able to find you animals and plants and tell you where to look for water as well. How do you think the Bedouin survive? Deserts are places where the unexpected happens - just as they are in the Bible. A people emerges triumphant after forty years in the wilderness. Jesus fights off the devil there. Elijah responds to the 'sound of sheer silence' that is God's voice. The list goes on.

[quote]You speak of this being hard on the women, and Im glad you admit that. But think about this, WHY IS IT NECESSARY? Life is harsh enough with financial problems and health problems and death, why add to its pain? Why would God desire virbant, loving women to lock themselves away from the people they could touch on a day to day basis? This of course refers back to the cloistered type of nun. Dont you realize as a young woman, and especially if you have your health, how many people's lives you could change for the better if you do not lock yourself away? How many of those people are you cheating by not being available to them? Sure Im glad you know the realities, of dealing with the drudge of life, that occurs everywhere, but I certainly believe you are locking yourself away from the joys of life too.[/quote]

Budge, entering the cloister neither adds to the pain of living or detracts from it. I've met people who think it is a form of escapism: "Aren't you lucky to be going to that lovely peaceful place!" Both their view and yours are totally wrong. Like all vocations, the cloistered life has its difficulties...and it also has its joys. I've sampled both. God wants us all to grow to be who we are called to be. For some women - not all, but some - this can only happen inside the cloister. For some women - not all, but some - it happens within marriage. It's no use trying to force yourself to live another person's vocation just because it looks 'easier' or more congenial at the time. That's where the real pain lies - trying to be someone you're not.

[quote]But think about this, where ever in the Bible, did Jesus set up monasteries or convents or tell Christians to LOCK themselves away from the world?[/quote]Where does the Bible say that Jesus had ten toes?

There is a scriptural basis for the monastic life, yes - others have already pointed it out. It is also true that monastic communities and hermits existed in the earliest years of Christianity. But the real evidence for the value of the cloistered life lies in the Bible's many exhortations to seek out God, to live for Him, to throw yourself into His plan for you without holding anything back. Each person has to create the best conditions for this to happen. My late grandfather used to be able to pray most deeply when he was gardening, so he spent as much time as possible out there. Even when he was elderly himself, he would go and attend to the gardens of old people for no charge so that they would have pleasure from the view all year round. These were his 'conditions of prayer' that allowed him to passionately throw himself into Christianity. But I'm a different type of plant altogether. I need different conditions to grow. I suspect that I've found them in the cloister.

[quote]Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.[/quote]

If I had to choose a motto that sums up the vocation of all contemplative nuns, that one verse would be it.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1219871' date='Mar 26 2007, 10:47 AM']That has nothing to do with convents and monasteries. There are people who WILL never marry, I have three friends who never have and they are going to hit 40 pretty soon.

Some people have no sexual feelings, and stay celibate even on in the workaday world...MY relative of mine has NEVER DATED....ever. She is a normal functioning adult with a good job. Just not interested.

Some people to do work for God like missionaries etc, may forgo marriage to focus on those things.

Nothing about that verse says CONVENT OR MONESTERY or celibacy being forced on any group of people.

What does this verse mean to you?

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 [b]Forbidding to marry, [/b][and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.[/quote]
There you go. Nuns are a group of women that choose to live under a set of rules as a matter of spiritual discipline. They aren't forced to become nuns, and they can choose to stop being nuns. Where is the problem?

A football player can't join a team and decide he doesn't want to wear the team colors and be the cornerback and instead wear his pajamas and play golf. Nobody forced him to join the football team, but as a member of the team, he chose to obey the rules of the game and team.

[Budge]

[quote]his could mean one of two things, possibly both. a.) Your vocation is to be active in the world, and b.) You are frightened of silence. Four days of quiet wouldn't have hurt your prayer life, Budge. As I've pointed out, it's a very short space of time. It's just a drop in the ocean, really, and it could have given you some valuable time for uninterrupted prayer and contemplation. When that woman spoke to you, you had already decided what was best for you - which isn't always a good thing. You should never be afraid of a challenge to your spiritual life. Even if your mission is an active one, a silent retreat here and there doesn't hurt.[/quote]Ive spent longer then that time alone during the course of my life due to other circumstances.

[quote]
By your own admission you've never been inside a cloistered monastery. How would you know? As St Catherine of Siena wrote, "If you are what you are called to be you will set the world ablaze." If God calls you to dedicate your life to Him in the monastery, you will reach personal fulfilment. Your personality won't be repressed; it will shine forth. All the sisters in the Carmel where I visited have unique and distinctive personalities. One is a real tomboy who loves to climb trees, another is a musicologist, a third likes to compile scrapbooks of Johnny Cash, a fourth is never happier than when she is painting...they're all different and they love each other for it.[/quote]

Im sure there are differences between monsteries, I am sure there are some that are more open and kind and others but even the orders and the way of disciplines are meant to break the wills are they not? This of course was worse prior to Vatican 2.

[quote]
Actually, deserts are far from barren. They are teeming with life. There are flowers and plants and even water - if you know where to look. Most people unfamiliar with desert landscape could stamp all over the place and not find anything. If you gave me fifteen minutes in a place like Bani Sa'ad, I would be able to find you animals and plants and tell you where to look for water as well. How do you think the Bedouin survive? Deserts are places where the unexpected happens - just as they are in the Bible. A people emerges triumphant after forty years in the wilderness. Jesus fights off the devil there. Elijah responds to the 'sound of sheer silence' that is God's voice. The list goes on.[/quote]Glad you know so much about the desert, course the heat alone isnt for everyone!

I cant really repeat self here, I believe SOME solitude is good as by Jesus's example but a lifetime of it is not mandated.


[quote]Budge, entering the cloister neither adds to the pain of living or detracts from it.[/quote]

Ive read the schedules on the internet, course some are better then others, but some it looks like religious bootcamp.

I watch that monstery show they ran some months ago, those guys could barely cut the schedule of the monks, yes I know it was TV....

Some people would see that as escapism. Wouldnt you see anybody having that as a motivation..? Burned out by the world, maybe having experienced abuse, where they want to run to some place where they will be taken care of as long as they put their hours of work in?

Ill be fair here and ask what do you see as some of the joys?

[quote]
My late grandfather used to be able to pray most deeply when he was gardening, so he spent as much time as possible out there. Even when he was elderly himself, he would go and attend to the gardens of old people for no charge so that they would have pleasure from the view all year round. These were his 'conditions of prayer' that allowed him to passionately throw himself into Christianity. But I'm a different type of plant altogether. I need different conditions to grow. I suspect that I've found them in the cloister.[/quote]I worry for you that in cloister you will be led into the wrong kind of prayer. That is a subject for another thread to be started...so called contemplative prayer. When one hs conversation with God, it can be anywhere anyplace.

[quote]
There you go. Nuns are a group of women that choose to live under a set of rules as a matter of spiritual discipline. They aren't forced to become nuns, and they can choose to stop being nuns. Where is the problem?[/quote]

Hey they have their freedom of religion to do their thing, and I certainly dont want convents "outlawed" though Id love to see these womens come to the true gospel and rather then Rome's rituals and false doctrines.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1220002' date='Mar 26 2007, 08:06 PM']Ive spent longer then that time alone during the course of my life due to other circumstances.
Im sure there are differences between monsteries, I am sure there are some that are more open and kind and others but even the orders and the way of disciplines are meant to break the wills are they not? This of course was worse prior to Vatican 2.

Glad you know so much about the desert, course the heat alone isnt for everyone!

I cant really repeat self here, I believe SOME solitude is good as by Jesus's example but a lifetime of it is not mandated.
Ive read the schedules on the internet, course some are better then others, but some it looks like religious bootcamp.

I watch that monstery show they ran some months ago, those guys could barely cut the schedule of the monks, yes I know it was TV....

Some people would see that as escapism. Wouldnt you see anybody having that as a motivation..? Burned out by the world, maybe having experienced abuse, where they want to run to some place where they will be taken care of as long as they put their hours of work in?

Ill be fair here and ask what do you see as some of the joys?

I worry for you that in cloister you will be led into the wrong kind of prayer. That is a subject for another thread to be started...so called contemplative prayer. When one hs conversation with God, it can be anywhere anyplace.
Hey they have their freedom of religion to do their thing, and I certainly dont want convents "outlawed" though Id love to see these womens come to the true gospel and rather then Rome's rituals and false doctrines.[/quote]Budge,
I'd love to see you start discussing things rationally and honestly. I think you spend too much time on the internet judging people's motives (without conversing with them) and I'm afraid it's led you into the wrong kind of thought process. Maybe that's a subject for another thread.