Celibate Nuns?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217893' date='Mar 23 2007, 07:41 PM']Honestly as Dr Phil would say...

How is imposed celibacy working for the Catholic Church?

{not very well, considering the problems with the Lavender Mafia}

Why do you folks care if your priest has a nice wife to go home to, to cook him hot meals and be a helpmate?

My last pastor was very happily married and his wife served the church in many capabilities.

I was glad to have a pastor that related to married life...{I am happily married}[/quote]
Budge,
You get me agreeing with you for a while then...
I think celibacy has worked for the Catholic Church quite well until recently. Celibacy isn't the issue, it's the idea that Clergy are something special and can behave differently than they preach. Add that mistake to 'tolerance' becoming acceptance and you get the Lavendar Mafia. Why are you so scared of a person who dedicates their entire life to working for God and is happy not having time for a spouse and children? Scripture tells us specifically some people are given that opportunity as a gift from God. To deny that is anti-Scriptural, isn't it?

[Budge]

I dont care if someone forgoes marriage and children. Some people never marry even out in the secular world, many people dont have children or cant have them.

I have two close very late 30s friends who have never married and probably never will and a SIL who does not want to marry and has said so.

I think the celibacy thing sets them apart from normal people, even normal people who may NOT be married and living the no dating lifestyle. It works like this, they are set apart, seen as more holy and "above" others because of these celibacy rules and the specialness. It is a pride thing. "Look you ingrates while youre all down there having "fun", we are the holy ones, who are untouched and 'pure'."

The system by imposing celibacy doesnt attract people who have just chosen celibacy on their own for other reasons actually attracts those who are more sexually ambivalent or with socio-sexual issues, perhaps struggles with homosexuality as a normal matter of course. Joining a system where you are forced to give up a wife for good, means you are definitely looking at things in a different ligt

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217893' date='Mar 23 2007, 05:41 PM']Honestly as Dr Phil would say...

How is imposed celibacy working for the Catholic Church?

{not very well, considering the problems with the Lavender Mafia}

Why do you folks care if your priest has a nice wife to go home to, to cook him hot meals and be a helpmate?

My last pastor was very happily married and his wife served the church in many capabilities.

I was glad to have a pastor that related to married life...{I am happily married}[/quote]


Why ask questions we both know you dont really want the answer to? When you find some anti-catholic article or picture that matches what you already falsely believe it that will be your "answer." Not the truth.

Edited March 23, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[thessalonian]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1217511' date='Mar 22 2007, 09:11 PM']I am totally against the celibacy of nuns. But I might be slightly biased because I am a guy.

On a serious note, I think denying men and women from marrying is wrong. As a Libertarian, I don't think any human organization should have any right to say what a person can or can't do. Also it is against scripture.
Deal with scripture.[/quote]


No, it's against your interpretation of scripture, not knowing context of the passage. Paul is speaking about a sect callen manechians who actually did forbid marriage, for all. Their people could nto get married. The Catholic Church allows men and women to discern for the celibate life. That is what Matt 19 and 1 Cor 7 are about. I ask again, where is consecrated celibacy in protestantism according to these two passages and others about eunuchs for the kingdom etc? I know of some lutheran and episcopalians that have a celibate lifestyle. These passages are not about those who can't get a date, but those like Samuel who were consecrated celibates. It's quite scriptural and protestants generally have no answer for it.

Edited March 23, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='1217501' date='Mar 22 2007, 08:30 PM']no no no. It is because of the Bible!!! The Bible talks abouts the clergy being married to one wife.
If the Bible never said that then we wouldn't be having this argument. The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.[/quote]


You take the passage about having one wife out of context. It is a very ackward way of saying one should be married if that is what it is intended for. Why not say a bishop must be married? Two very good reasons are seen in the writings of the Church Fathers. But first of all you should know that it is not doctrine that Catholic priests are not married and in times past they have been. There are even a few today who came in from Lutherans or Anglicans and were married and allowed to be priests. In fact about 500 priests came from the Anglicans in the 90's when they started allowing women priests. Most were married and became Catholic preists. Secondly the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome have married clergy. Celibacy among priests is a practice, not a doctrine.

Now that you have an education about that, with regard to Paul's statement about Bishops having one wife, as I said it is very awkward if he is saying they have to be married. Even more awkward, considering that Paul himself was not married. See 1 Cor 7. I doudt he was placing a requirement upon Bishosps he could not meet (by the way, most protestant Churches don't have Bishops either, but then that problem doesn't occur to them when they are Catholic thumping this passage either). More likely, and there is evidence of this in the writings of the Church fathers, the passage was refering to one of two or both cases. Those who had been married and then divorced were not elligible for the priesthood, or those who were in polygamous relationships which were not uncommon. These make a whole lot more sense out of the text than your awkward interpretation of it.

The question by others about nuns has been answered by Dave quite adequately. You should read it.

Blessings

[RezaMikhaeil]

[b]I go lurk on Vocation Station, most of them are idealistic, very nice young women, sometimes the idea of the cloistered ones bothers me a lot more, where they go lock themselves behind a grille {cage} even unable to visit their own families except on rare occasions and emergencies, everything seems so wrong with that.[/b] For someone that doesn't understand it maybe, this is the same mindset that causes divorce. The Protestant Church has a higher divorce rate then even the secular world, because vows and covenants are not honored. Your statement is no different then men that leave their families with outrageously pathetic statements such as "I just felt trapped, in prison, cornered, so I couldn't stay with my wife and children".

[b]This doesnt mean everyone has to marry, but I think a young girl locking herself away this way is wrong in every respect. Its almost like they are putting themselves in jail. [/b] I'm guessing that you don't consider St. Euphrasia, and the many great Monastic women to be a Saints, despite their great acts of love towards Jesus Christ in the 3rd century, such as leaping to their martyrdom in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ.

[b]Wonder if any of them wake up when they are 35-40 years old and ask what have I done with my life? God wants Christians to show thier light in the world, not hide it under a bushel or behind a cage in a convent.[/b] We need their prayers abundantly, their also not "locking themselves away" its quite different then your perceptions. However, I'd read alot of writings of modern nuns and it's quite the opposite, they're deeply burdened that more young ladies today, don't seek monasticism as it was their greatest moment in their lives.

[b]So it goes deeper then just the enforced celibacy. There is nothing about nuns in the BIble, in fact I believe while certainly community life has its appeal, people living together helping each other out, etc, the nun is more based on Rome's Vestal Virgins historically.[/b] No, actually St. Antony was the founder of Monasticism [Desert Fathers & Desert Mothers], who was Coptic [Egyptian], not Roman. Now the Carmelite form of Monasticism is Roman, that's true but the concept of Monasticism was founded by St. Antony but a non-formal version was practiced by none other then St. Paul himself. It's also not correct to say that celebacy was "enforced" because women/men have a choice not to become a Monastic, if its not their calling.

[b]Before any one says I am down on nuns Im not. I was educated by them and I was friends with nuns as a child and young teen, even visiting the convent I lived very close to.[/b] I'm going to call your bluff, you havn't ever met a monastic in your entire lifetime, if you had been "so close" to these nuns as you're suggesting, you'd know these facts that I'd presented to you, and you'd know more about it.

[b]I think they are women who mean well and want to live life for God, but just misled in how to do that.[/b] This is an uneducated statement, thou not uncommon among protestants of your sort.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

Whats wrong Budge? No response? Cat gotcha tongue?

[Budge]

no board slow and not letting me post...

[quote]
For someone that doesn't understand it maybe, this is the same mindset that causes divorce. The Protestant Church has a higher divorce rate then even the secular world, because vows and covenants are not honored. Your statement is no different then men that leave their families with outrageously pathetic statements such as "I just felt trapped, in prison, cornered, so I couldn't stay with my wife and children".[/quote]Oh come on marriage isnt living behind prison walls.

I think that is quite a bit of a stretch.

The nun's marriage would be equivalent to a woman married to an abusive guy who locks her behind a cage....just doesnt compute.

[quote]
I'm guessing that you don't consider St. Euphrasia, and the many great Monastic women to be a Saints, despite their great acts of love towards Jesus Christ in the 3rd century, such as leaping to their martyrdom in order to proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

By now you should realize I dont consider everyone the Catholic Church considers to be a saint to really be so. Monasticism is more related to paganism. I read a memroir by a Buddist nun, their system of monasticism has so much overlap with yours its not funny. Jesus never set up any convents.

[quote]
We need their prayers abundantly, their also not "locking themselves away" its quite different then your perceptions. However, I'd read alot of writings of modern nuns and it's quite the opposite, they're deeply burdened that more young ladies today, don't seek monasticism as it was their greatest moment in their lives.[/quote]How are they really going to pray for anyone except in the most vague and removed way. They cant even lay hands on people to pray..>Why because they are locked away...even from their own families. This is for control, I know when they enter becaue years ago I talked to this girl on Rapture Ready who was entering the convent, that they would have all their mail ceased and not even be allowed to write letters. Im sure that does wonders for their families. Theyll tell them oh its so you can pray and determine your vocation, no this is more about control and removing a young girl from her support systems.

Young ladies dont seek the convent now becuase most young healthy women can make it on their own, they do not have to join the convent to survive. The life is less appealing now. Why should a young healthy woman sign up to be a free worker for Rome living in a small "cell" {ironic name that, just like prison}?

[quote]
I'm going to call your bluff, you havn't ever met a monastic in your entire lifetime, if you had been "so close" to these nuns as you're suggesting, you'd know these facts that I'd presented to you, and you'd know more about it.[/quote]

I never met the cloistered types, how could I? but I knew nuns who worked at my school directly. I bet many of them left because none of them are left except one at that school anymore.

I want to cry for the women on Vocation station who are being so misled. Young, vibrant girls being fed a lie, told to lock away their light under a bushel, to "better" the world. Telling them they are "marrying" Jesus Christ 'brides of Christ" when that is totally wrong. the bride of Christ is the church.

Some will wake up and regret the husband and children they have missed out on. Some will realize like an old friend of my family, who was a nun for 23 years that she was just there to make money for the church while she lived the life of a pauper. She ended up wisely leaving and marrying.

Some will regret waking up and realizing theyve basically lived life in a prison "cell" esopecially the cloistered variety.

[Budge]

I wonder if they still outlaw nuns from making personal friends in their convents...

I know they made that a rule pre-Vatican 2....

So they live this life, high ubove the air seperated from family, seperated from friends, false piety and ritual, told they are "holier" then others",

When I see the women step behind that cage on the OLAM website pics I want cry for them.

Many of those young girls have been deceived thinking that is living for God, when they are locking themselves away from people who need them and who they could have made the world a better place for rather then going into some opulant monstery where every step is mandated by others.

I think some girls join the convent, really believing this is a way to serve God.

Some join because they are afraid of the world and see the convent as a refuge. I know someone whose father told them "join the convent, let them take care of you!", when they had a period of post-college unemployment!


I bet some of those girls who may not be as pretty or outgoing or are late blooming or shy about dating, had their families telling them, join the convent, you cant do worse! I think of the quiet girl who may have the cheerleader sister, who is unassuming, maybe doesnt stand out very much, almost doing this to make a name for herself, to get "noticed"

Some girls are caught up in the false "romance" of it all..the candles, getting to wear a different outfit, having the honor, love and respect of their families, forming an idendity this way.

Some simply do not desire marriage or children and at least in the old days saw this as their only viable option, perhaps that is tstill true in conservative Catholic families.

Some are attracted to communal living. {desiring community} and they have a case since we live in such a disconnected society nowadays, but even then can on have a true community when you cant even make personal friends, or your pals are there to watch your every move and turn you into the Superior or youre laying prostrate on the floor because you didnt clean the floors good enough for "punishment"__I know they did that pre-Vatican II.

[Maggyie]

[quote]I never met the cloistered types, how could I? but I knew nuns who worked at my school directly. I bet many of them left because none of them are left except one at that school anymore.

I want to cry for the women on Vocation station who are being so misled. Young, vibrant girls being fed a lie, told to lock away their light under a bushel, to "better" the world. Telling them they are "marrying" Jesus Christ 'brides of Christ" when that is totally wrong. the bride of Christ is the church.

Some will wake up and regret the husband and children they have missed out on. Some will realize like an old friend of my family, who was a nun for 23 years that she was just there to make money for the church while she lived the life of a pauper. She ended up wisely leaving and marrying.

Some will regret waking up and realizing theyve basically lived life in a prison "cell" esopecially the cloistered variety.[/quote]

Please see the Gospel of St. John's story of Martha and Mary to understand the life of cloistered contemplatives.

I am sorry you do not know any happy nuns. I know lots. They are in love with Jesus Christ and His Church, and they do not regret anything.

Incidentally, I [i]do[/i] know some married people who regret not joining the convent or the priesthood... Do you have any thoughts about their situation?

[Budge]

I did know some happy nuns but these werent the cloistered types but many were HAPPY inspite of the strictures being put on them.
People do the best with what they have to deal with. Many nuns left including my family friend. I met an ex-nun when I was UU, that had a mental and phyusical breakdown, she went running to the UU curch, of course she no longer believed anymore in what she thought was "Christianity". She told us some horror stories in a UU class we had.

Many women left the convents over the last 20 years. Will you admit their numbers have dropped. When Iw as a kid you may see a nun every now and then, but now they are rare as a needle in a haystack.

Martha and Mary may have lived together but that doesnt mean they were nuns...

I wonder how those married peoples spouses would think about them regretting the marriage...

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Budge' post='1219399' date='Mar 25 2007, 04:51 PM']I did know some happy nuns but these werent the cloistered types but many were HAPPY inspite of the strictures being put on them.
People do the best with what they have to deal with. Many nuns left including my family friend. I met an ex-nun when I was UU, that had a mental and phyusical breakdown, she went running to the UU curch, of course she no longer believed anymore in what she thought was "Christianity". She told us some horror stories in a UU class we had.

Many women left the convents over the last 20 years. Will you admit their numbers have dropped. When Iw as a kid you may see a nun every now and then, but now they are rare as a needle in a haystack.

Martha and Mary may have lived together but that doesnt mean they were nuns...

I wonder how those married peoples spouses would think about them regretting the marriage...[/quote]

You are correct that the numbers of nuns have dropped a lot in the last few years, but that is more a result of our materialistic culture than anything, a culture which is almost entirely deaf to the call of the Lord to "sell what you have, give to the poor and come follow me." Marriage is not doing so well in modern society, either, as evidenced by the push for gay marriage and the epidemic of divorce and unwed couples living together. Religious life is suffering for the same reasons that marriage is suffering, I believe.

My point about Mary and Martha was that Mary was sitting at Jesus' feet instead of helping Martha with the housework. She was worshiping the Son of God, not doing the physical chores necessary to maintain the household. Jesus refused to chastise her for this; in fact, He said she had the better part. Cloistered contemplatives are not hiding their light under a bushel in any way. If anything their lives serve as an even more radical witness in a go-go-go, gimme-gimme culture that despises the idea of pausing to be still and listen to God. That is what the Christian life should ultimately be, whether it is cloistered or out in the world: Striving to sit at the feet of Jesus, listening and worshiping.

In the cases of the people I know who regret marrying instead of pursuing a religious vocation, it is clear to both spouses that the one clearly had a call to serve God in the religious life. It is a sad situation but not tragic, because God does not punish people for saying "no." He does not ever force anyone; it has to be a free choice. He often gives such people wonderful, loving families.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1219414' date='Mar 25 2007, 10:05 PM']In the cases of the people I know who regret marrying instead of pursuing a religious vocation, it is clear to both spouses that the one clearly had a call to serve God in the religious life. It is a sad situation but not tragic, because God does not punish people for saying "no." He does not ever force anyone; it has to be a free choice. He often gives such people wonderful, loving families.[/quote]

I know people like that as well. One in particular who has since become a deacon. He and his wife, and their children all know he was called to be a priest. And they have a beautiful love for each other. But he does regret marrying instead of following God's call for him.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Archaeology cat

[RezaMikhaeil]

[b]Oh come on marriage isnt living behind prison walls.[/b]

I never said that marriage was prison, what I said is that some [such as yourself, feminists, etc] see it as such, just as you see convents as prison [though it isn't].

[b]The nun's marriage would be equivalent to a woman married to an abusive guy who locks her behind a cage....just doesnt compute.[/b]

You wouldn't know, for you've never met any but rather are just making assumptions for a very long distance.

[b]Monasticism is more related to paganism.[/b]

Thou it's definately not paganism, I'm going to say that its no more paganism then protestantism and individuals that just lead a rebellion against the church and her history.

[b]I read a memroir by a Buddist nun[/b]

Sorry but it has no connection.

[b]How are they really going to pray for anyone except in the most vague and removed way.[/b]

You'd be surprised at what nuns know and understand, wait... you wouldn't be surprised but most normal people would.

[b]They cant even lay hands on people to pray[/b] According to the sacraments, neither can you, since only someone that's got a valid baptism is in the position to annoint the sick with oil, but by this statement I'm assuming that you subscribe to charismatic protestant christianity, in which is just a replica of Montanism [to which was declared heretical in the 3rd century along with Tertullian a heretic].

[b]Why because they are locked away...even from their own families. This is for control, I know when they enter becaue years ago I talked to this girl on Rapture Ready who was entering the convent, that they would have all their mail ceased and not even be allowed to write letters.[/b]

"This girl" you didn't know personally, and therefore you can't be posetive of her testimony, moreover just because some nuns are restricted from their families visiting daily, doesn't mean that its for control in the abusive sense. A nun is to be dead to the world, that's the point of being a nun [or a monk] and therefore a woman that chooses to become a nun [yes its a choice] has made the choice to be dead to the world and dedicate their lives to serving God in such an environment. If you're not aware, those women that take life vows, didn't just choose it on a whim but rather were novises for several years before knowing for sure that this was to be their vocation.

[b]Im sure that does wonders for their families.[/b]

You'd be surprised my pessimistic friend of little faith.

[b]Theyll tell them oh its so you can pray and determine your vocation, no this is more about control and removing a young girl from her support systems. [/b] Most of the time their parents understand a bit more then you seem to understand, so it's quite different then that.

[b]Young ladies dont seek the convent now becuase most young healthy women can make it on their own, they do not have to join the convent to survive.[/b] umm, I'm not sure if you're aware but most women since the beginning of monasticism, didn't join in order to "survive" but did so because of a choice and you'd be surprised to see the monastic monestaries and convents thriving [and actually growing in america]. Read about St. Demiana and the 40 virginis, it was very much the opposite, she begged her father to build her a convent. Read about St. Euphrasia and you'll see that she was raised by nuns and made the choice to persue their path rather then that of her royal bloodline.

[b]Why should a young healthy woman sign up to be a free worker for Rome living [/b]

This is a very clear statement that you know nothing about service to the lord.

[b]I never met the cloistered types, how could I?[/b]

Then you probably shouldn't speak as if what you say is factual regarding them, if you don't know. I know that there are some convents that would allow you to visit them and talk with the nuns directly, if you were interested thou. I know in Egypt [I'm Coptic], there are convents that would be more then willing to iron out the kinks in your mind for you.

[b]but I knew nuns who worked at my school directly. I bet many of them left because none of them are left except one at that school anymore.[/b]

You're jumping to conclusions a bit fast aren't you? My wife is a nurse at a Catholic Hospital and alot of the "nuns" that visit there, are really sisters [don't take long term vows] but go on to become nuns [long term vows]. Just because they aren't at the school no more doesn't mean that they quit the monastic lifestyle, just went somewhere else to help.

[b]I want to cry for the women on Vocation station who are being so misled. Young, vibrant girls being fed a lie, told to lock away their light under a bushel, to "better" the world. Telling them they are "marrying" Jesus Christ 'brides of Christ" when that is totally wrong. the bride of Christ is the church.[/b]

Most of them have spent a great amount of time studying monasticism, have spoken to nuns and gotten the truth directly from the horses mouth, I wouldn't worry about them if I were you but worry about your understanding [or should I say lack of]. I'm glad that you mentioned that the bride of Christ is the church because I'm curious as to "what church" you think that is? The charismatic protestant church as you subscribe to, or that which was directly affirmed by the Apostles?

Reza

[Starets]

Actually, monasticism or at least the monastic way of life, already existed for women prior to Abba Anthony. After all, his sister joined a monastic community while anthony was still alive. They may have existed all the way back to apostolic times. One of the monasteries that abba anthony founded is still in existence almost 17 centuries later.