Celibate Nuns?

[Megz]

You are referring to cloisterd nuns. There are plenty of orders of Sisters who work within the community in amazing capacity. i know a few of them, and some of them are habited. I don't think there are too many "behind bars" cloisters who do no work for the community. Even those who are cloistered usually provied an irreplacable benefit, such as a hospital, a school, or even food or Eucharistic bread. Some cook sweets. They are prayerful and highly skilled.

[Dave]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217202' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:47 AM']So what happened here?
How many monasteries have produced wine?

[img]http://www.maisons-champagne.com/orga_prof/images/image17.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.madeirawineguide.com/pics/Three%20monks%20california%20madeira.jpg[/img]

[img]http://static.flickr.com/92/253959711_fc4110931a.jpg[/img]
[img]http://polynate.net/photos/tonsure1.jpg[/img]
Right from olam website:

[img]http://www.seocc.org/elizabeth/relics.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/159/catherine.jpg[/img]

tombs under the altar at the Vatican.

[img]http://www.jonathanstephens.com/italy-large/St%20Peter%20Tomb%20Vatican%20Rome%20Italy.jpg[/img][/quote]

Customs can change. Besides, it's not a sin to drink wine, eat grapes, cut one's hair, or come in contact with dead people. Besides, that last one had to do with ritual cleanliness/uncleanliness ... Christ changed all that when he said it's what comes out of us, not what goes into us, that defiles.

[prose]

[img]http://static.flickr.com/92/253959711_fc4110931a.jpg[/img]



Now THAT is an authoritative picture if ever I have seen one!!

Edited March 22, 2007 by prose

[Starets]

If you think joining a cloistered order is a sign of running away from the world or hiding your light under a bushel, then I really wonder how much of monastic life you realy understood in your catholic years.

1. if you join in order to flee the world, you will soon have to flee the order. Any monastic will tell you that the hardest thing about monastic life is the fact that you have to live with the same people 24x7. there's no such thing as calling in sick! normal interpersonal struggles get magnified enormously.

2. A cloistered life is not a fleeing from the world, it is a disengagement with the world in order to engage it more fully in a spiritual sense. If you are not familiar with the power of prayer, I'm not sure how i can help you.

3. when you are alone with God you are also alone with yourself. You need to have the emotional, mental, and spiritual maturity to handle that.

[Jnorm888]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1216860' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:54 AM']You here so many people complaining about celibacy in the priesthood. That it needs to be done away with. I find it very strange that noone ever mentions celibate nuns. I went to here a liberal nun speak last night. I really think that nuns don't complain about celibacy in their ranks because of their desire for women in the preisthood.[/quote]


no no no. It is because of the Bible!!! The Bible talks abouts the clergy being married to one wife.


If the Bible never said that then we wouldn't be having this argument. The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217202' date='Mar 22 2007, 06:47 AM']How many monasteries have produced wine?[/quote]

Christ made and drank wine, monasteries are just following the lead of Christ. Whats your problem?

While the painting of the drunk monk is comical, its rather meaningless to this debate, or any debate really.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='1217501' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:30 PM']no no no. It is because of the Bible!!! The Bible talks abouts the clergy being married to one wife.
If the Bible never said that then we wouldn't be having this argument. The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.[/quote]

Yes Yes Yes! Because it is in the Bible!

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html#priesthood-V"]Celibacy is Church Practice, Not Dogma[/url]
Matt. 19:11-12 - Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

Matt. 19:29 - Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Matt. 22:30 - Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus' kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

1 Cor 7:1 – Paul teaches that it is well for a man not to touch a woman. This is the choice that the Catholic priests of the Roman rite freely make.

1 Cor. 7:7 - Paul also acknowledges that celibacy is a gift from God and wishes that all were celibate like he is.

1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 - Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.”

1 Tim. 3:2 - Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church's celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church's Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

1 Tim. 4:3 - in this verse, Paul refers to deceitful doctrines that forbid marriage. Many non-Catholics also use this verse to impugn the Church's practice of celibacy. This is entirely misguided because the Catholic Church (unlike many Protestant churches) exalts marriage to a sacrament. In fact, marriage is elevated to a sacrament, but consecrated virginity is not. The Church declares marriage sacred, covenantal and lifegiving. Paul is referring to doctrines that forbid marriage and other goods when done outside the teaching of Christ and for a lessor good. Celibacy is an act of giving up one good (marriage and children) for a greater good (complete spiritual union with God).

1 Tim. 5:9-12 - Paul recommends that older widows take a pledge of celibacy. This was the beginning of women religious orders.

2 Tim. 2:3-4 - Paul instructs his bishop Timothy that no soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim his to satisfy the One who enlisted him. Paul is using an analogy to describe the role of the celibate priesthood in the Church.

Rev. 14:4 - unlike our sinful world of the flesh, in heaven, those consecrated to virginity are honored.

Isaiah 56:3-7 - the eunuchs who keep God's covenant will have a special place in the kingdom of heaven.

Jer. 16:1-4 - Jeremiah is told by God not to take a wife or have children.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jnorm888' post='1217501' date='Mar 22 2007, 07:30 PM']The Bible never talks about nuns.......nor should it.[/quote]

Dave gave a good answer to this already...

[quote name='Dave' post='1217015' date='Mar 21 2007, 06:43 PM']In the Old Testament there was an entire order of men and women, known as Nazirites ("consecrated ones"), who were were essentially monks and nuns. They took vows of self-denial (Num. 6:2-4, 6-8) and had a distinctive appearance (Num. 6:5). John the Baptist was one of these (Luke 1:15), as were Samson (Judges 13:5-6) and Samuel (1 Sam. 1:11). Others too led a consecrated lifestyle, such as the prophetess Anna, who lived like a cloistered nun (Luke 2:36-37).

In the Christian age Paul himself took a temporary Nazirite vow (Acts 18:18) and recommended that others live celibate lives, consecrated to God (1 Cor. 7:32-38), especially ministers (1 Tim. 2:3-4). He set up an order of widows living the consecrated life after the deaths of their husbands (1 Tim. 5:3-12), warning that those were not to be enrolled in this order if they were in danger of leaving the consecrated life to get married and so "incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge" (1 Tim. 5:12).

Based on this biblical material, the early Church perpetuated the consecrated life, and over the years it has taken a variety of forms. There arose orders of widows (à la 1 Tim. 5:12), orders of virgins of Christ (à la 1 Cor. 7:34), and orders of "deaconesses," women who assisted in certain church duties, though they weren't ordained. Later, these were merged into the modern concept of nuns; men living the consecrated life came to be known as monks.[/quote]

[FullTruth]

I am totally against the celibacy of nuns. But I might be slightly biased because I am a guy.

On a serious note, I think denying men and women from marrying is wrong. As a Libertarian, I don't think any human organization should have any right to say what a person can or can't do. Also it is against scripture.

[quote name='1 Timothy 4:2-4' date=' KJV']Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

[b]Forbidding to marry[/b], and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:[/quote]

Deal with scripture.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1217511' date='Mar 22 2007, 08:11 PM']I am totally against the celibacy of nuns. But I might be slightly biased because I am a guy.

On a serious note, I think denying men and women from marrying is wrong. As a Libertarian, I don't think any human organization should have any right to say what a person can or can't do. Also it is against scripture.
Deal with scripture.[/quote]


The numerous passages from scripture, supporting celibacy, I posted can not just be overlooked because of one misunderstood passage you post.

"Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats"... He [Saint Paul] speaks of the Gnostics, the Marcionites, the Eneratites, the Manicheans, and other ancient heretics, who [b]absolutely[/b] condemned marriage, and the use of all kind of meat; because they pretended that all flesh was from an evil principle. W[b]hereas the church of God, so far from condemning marriage, holds it a holy sacrament; and forbids it to none but such as by vow have chosen the better part[/b]: and prohibits not the use of any meats whatsoever in proper times and seasons; though she does not judge all kind of diet proper for days of fasting and penance."

[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/61004.htm"]Source[/url]


Mother Church does not "condemn" marriage, celibacy is a choice, and Jesus Christ praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

Deal with the true meaning of Holy Scripture.

Edited March 23, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Archaeology cat]

Just to add a little bit more Scripture. Forgive me if I'm repeating, but I don't think I saw these verses up yet.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1217513' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:22 AM']Mother Church does not "condemn" marriage, celibacy is a choice, and Jesus Christ praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.[/quote]

10The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

11But He said to them, "(J)Not all men can accept this statement, but (K)only those to whom it has been given.

12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it." (Matthew 19:10-12, NASB)

Or you can check out the link here for the Jerusalem Bible, I couldn't copy it. [url="http://www.kofc.duq.edu/scripture/gmatthew.html"]Matthew[/url]

Edited March 23, 2007 by Archaeology cat

[Budge]

Forbidding to marry is directly written in scripture per the above, as a "doctrine of demons"

Catholics cannot claim that their religious are "not" forbidden to marry.

If they want to be nuns or priests that rule IS IMPOSED on them.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217615' date='Mar 23 2007, 09:21 AM']Forbidding to marry is directly written in scripture per the above, as a "doctrine of demons"

Catholics cannot claim that their religious are "not" forbidden to marry.

If they want to be nuns or priests that rule IS IMPOSED on them.[/quote]
(point by point)

Read again Budge...you missed the point...again. Read KofCs post again, this time without yer anti-Catholic glasses on..

The sentence, besides being gramatically questionable, makes a false assertion.

Yep. Like ballplayers HAVE to wear the uniform of the team for which they play...like all HAVE to go thru a metal detector at the airport...like you HAVE to turn on the oven to bake the cake. All these are IMPOSED on people...but they can choose to not play sports, not go to the airport, or not bake a cake. Likewise, poeple are free to choose not to pursue consecrated life.


Yer a silly girl, Budgie!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1217615' date='Mar 23 2007, 08:21 AM']Forbidding to marry is directly written in scripture per the above, as a "doctrine of demons"

Catholics cannot claim that their religious are "not" forbidden to marry.

If they want to be nuns or priests that rule IS IMPOSED on them.[/quote]

As usual your anti-catholic statements are falsehoods, have no base in reality, and you have [color="#FF0000"]no response[/color] to the numerous passages from Holy Scripture supporting celibacy. You do not understand scripture and you do not understand Mother Church. In the Latin Rite celibacy is a choice for religious. If one feels so called to be both a religious and married there's always the Eastern Rite. Again it comes down to a choice.

[Budge]

Honestly as Dr Phil would say...

How is imposed celibacy working for the Catholic Church?

{not very well, considering the problems with the Lavender Mafia}

Why do you folks care if your priest has a nice wife to go home to, to cook him hot meals and be a helpmate?

My last pastor was very happily married and his wife served the church in many capabilities.

I was glad to have a pastor that related to married life...{I am happily married}

Edited March 23, 2007 by Budge