If Priest Gets One Word Wrong: Mass Is Invalid

[Anomaly]

But is Budge correct in her conclusion that 'get one word wrong' the consecration doesn't take place?

[theculturewarrior]

No, but she is posting about someone who changed it on purpose.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1217735' date='Mar 23 2007, 02:58 PM']No, but she is posting about someone who changed it on purpose.[/quote]
LOL. What's funny is that you guys challenged Budgie to provide Magesterial Documents to prove that she or the priest's answer is wrong, but none of your posts actually quote 'Magesterial Documents' to bring a clear and definitive answer to her question.
What EXACTLY is requred to make the consecration invalid or illicit? Can you provide a definitive document?

Have you ever noticed that the RC priests that post here never get involved in these debates with a defintive answer? Is it no wonder that Bishops and Cardinals have such varied opinions and so many different matters?

[theculturewarrior]

It's in the GIRM, but I am too lazy to look it up. Basically, if they use the wrong kind of bread or wine, it is invalid, and if they make up their own prayer of consecration, it is invalid. See the General Instruction on the Roman Missal.

Edited March 23, 2007 by theculturewarrior

[Anomaly]

If you are too lazy to look it up, then don't reply because you DON'T know for sure. The priest didn't quote the GIRM, nor did anyone else. Way to bump away my question without answering it... Can you provide a definitive and DOCUMENTED answer or not? So far, NOT.

[theculturewarrior]

I gave you an answer. Do I need to give you a call number too?

[theculturewarrior]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3A.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3A.HTM[/url]

Canon Law. Want me to read it to you too?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1217765' date='Mar 23 2007, 04:20 PM'][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3A.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3A.HTM[/url]

Canon Law. Want me to read it to you too?[/quote]
You seem to be both lazy and sarcastic, as well as failing to answer the question. I'll go ahead and embarass you further by providing the text you linked too.
1- The link is to Canon Law, not the Girm.
2- This is law only for the Latin Church. What about the other Rites? Doesn't the RC Church acknowledge the Eastern Orthodox as having Valid Consecration.
3- Nothing in the link you provided addresses the actual words necessary. Canon 928 only refers to "liturgical texts" that were "legitimately approved". That begs the questions, where/what are those texts. Who/what authority is 'legitimate'? Can/do different Rites have different authorities? Are/were different translations from Latin to english 'approved'? etc.

[quote]Art. 3.
THE RITES AND CEREMONIES OF THE EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION
Can. 924 §1. The most holy eucharistic sacrifice must be offered with bread and with wine in which a little water must be mixed.
§2. The bread must be only wheat and recently made so that there is no danger of spoiling.
§3. The wine must be natural from the fruit of the vine and not spoiled.
Can. 925 Holy communion is to be given under the form of bread alone, or under both species according to the norm of the liturgical laws, or even under the form of wine alone in a case of necessity.
Can. 926 According to the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread in the eucharistic celebration whenever he offers it.
Can. 927 It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the eucharistic celebration.
[b]Can. 928 The eucharistic celebration is to be carried out in the Latin language or in another language provided that the liturgical texts have been legitimately approved.[/b]
Can. 929 In celebrating and administering the Eucharist, priests and deacons are to wear the sacred vestments prescribed by the rubrics.
Can. 930 §1. If an infirm or elderly priest is unable to stand, he can celebrate the eucharistic sacrifice while seated, but not before the people except with the permission of the local ordinary; the liturgical laws are to be observed.
§2. A blind or otherwise infirm priest licitly celebrates the eucharistic sacrifice by using any approved text of the Mass with the assistance, if needed, of another priest, deacon, or even a properly instructed lay person.[/quote]Please re-work your answer and resubmit it for evaluation for credit.

[theculturewarrior]

I am not easily embarrassed by people who talk to me the way just did. This is the law for the Latin Church. Other Churches have their own laws. The 1975 GIRM says the exact same thing as what you have just posted. This is just the part that deals with bread and wine, because like I said, I'm lazy, but I am not stupid. As for the rest, why don't [i]you[/i] look it up. Prove me wrong. Otherwise, pay my consulting fees.

Edited March 23, 2007 by theculturewarrior

[Anomaly]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1217827' date='Mar 23 2007, 06:12 PM']I am not easily embarrassed by people who talk to me the way just did. This is the law for the Latin Church. Other Churches have their laws. The 1975 GIRM says the exact same thing as what you have just posted. This is just the part that deals with bread and wine, because like I said, I'm lazy, but I am not stupid. As for the rest, why don't [i]you[/i] look it up. Prove me wrong. Otherwise, pay my consulting fees. [/quote]
LOL. Toughen up, cup-cake.
I've only asked a couple of questions which you've feebly attempted to 'answer'. Prove you wrong? I don't think you've come up with an answer yet. I haven't claimed to not be stupid. I may very well be. I've asked a question and you've said you would answer it and even offered to read it to me. Well?

I asked: "What EXACTLY is requred to make the consecration invalid or illicit? Can you provide a definitive document?"
Please keep in mind, this post was originally about the EXACT words used for Consecration and which words cannot be changed without causing the Consecration to be invalid.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Anomaly

[CatholicCid]

Here is a reference to the Eucharistic Celebration in the GIRM

[quote]The Eucharistic Prayer

78. Now the center and summit of the entire celebration begins: namely, the Eucharistic Prayer, that is, the prayer of thanksgiving and sanctification. The priest invites the people to lift up their hearts to the Lord in prayer and thanksgiving; he unites the congregation with himself in the prayer that he addresses in the name of the entire community to God the Father through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, the meaning of the Prayer is that the entire congregation of the faithful should join itself with Christ in confessing the great deeds of God and in the offering of Sacrifice. The Eucharistic Prayer demands that all listen to it with reverence and in silence.

79. The chief elements making up the Eucharistic Prayer may be distinguished in this way:


Thanksgiving (expressed especially in the Preface): In which the priest, in the name of the entire holy people, glorifies God the Father and gives thanks for the whole work of salvation or for some special aspect of it that corresponds to the day, festivity, or season.

Acclamation: In which the whole congregation, joining with the heavenly powers, sings the Sanctus. This acclamation, which is part of the Eucharistic Prayer itself, is sung or said by all the people with the priest.

Epiclesis: In which, by means of particular invocations, the Church implores the power of the Holy Spirit that the gifts offered by human hands be consecrated, that is, become Christ's Body and Blood, and that the spotless Victim to be received in Communion be for the salvation of those who will partake of it.

Institution narrative and consecration: In which, by means of words and actions of Christ, the Sacrifice is carried out which Christ himself instituted at the Last Supper, when he offered his Body and Blood under the species of bread and wine, gave them to his Apostles to eat and drink, and left them the command to perpetuate this same mystery.

Anamnesis: In which the Church, fulfilling the command that she received from Christ the Lord through the Apostles, keeps the memorial of Christ, recalling especially his blessed Passion, glorious Resurrection, and Ascension into heaven.

Offering: By which, in this very memorial, the Church—and in particular the Church here and now gathered—offers in the Holy Spirit the spotless Victim to the Father. The Church's intention, however, is that the faithful not only offer this spotless Victim but also learn to offer themselves,71 and so day by day to be consummated, through Christ the Mediator, into unity with God and with each other, so that at last God may be all in all.72

Intercessions: By which expression is given to the fact that the Eucharist is celebrated in communion with the entire Church, of heaven as well as of earth, and that the offering is made for her and for all her members, living and dead, who have been called to participate in the redemption and the salvation purchased by Christ's Body and Blood.

Final doxology: By which the glorification of God is expressed and is confirmed and concluded by the people's acclamation, Amen.[/quote][url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c[/url]


Here is the use of Mass text, specificaly the Eucharistic Prayers from the GIRM

[quote]The Eucharistic Prayer

364. The purpose of the many prefaces that enrich the Roman Missal is to bring out more fully the motives for thanksgiving within the Eucharistic Prayer and to set out more clearly the different facets of the mystery of salvation.

365. The choice among the Eucharistic Prayers found in the Order of Mass is suitably guided by the following norms:



Eucharistic Prayer I, that is, the Roman Canon, which may always be used, is especially suited to be sung or said on days when there is a proper text for the Communicantes (In union with the whole Church) or in Masses endowed with a proper form of the Hanc igitur (Father, accept this offering) and also in the celebrations of the Apostles and of the Saints mentioned in the Prayer itself; it is likewise especially appropriate for Sundays, unless for pastoral considerations Eucharistic Prayer III is preferred.

Eucharistic Prayer II, on account of its particular features, is more appropriately used on weekdays or in special circumstances. Although it has been provided with its own Preface, it may also be used with other Prefaces, especially those that summarize the mystery of salvation, such as the common Prefaces. When Mass is celebrated for a particular dead person, the special formula may be inserted in the place indicated, namely, before the Memento etiam (Remember our brothers and sisters).

Eucharistic Prayer III may be said with any Preface. Its use is preferred on Sundays and feast days. If, however, this Eucharistic Prayer is used in Masses for the Dead, the special formula for the dead may be used, to be included at the proper place, namely, after the Omnes filios tuos ubique dispersos, tibi, clemens Pater, miseratus coniunge (In mercy and love unite all your children).

Eucharistic Prayer IV has an invariable Preface and gives a fuller summary of salvation history. It may be used when a Mass has no Preface of its own and on Sundays in Ordinary Time. Because of its structure, no special formula for the dead may be inserted into this prayer.[/quote]

[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter7.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter7.shtml[/url]


Here are the Basic Texts of the Eucharistic Prayers

[url="http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm"]http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm[/url]

[b][color="#FF0000"]Warning - My own thoughts[/color][/b]

Now, from my own spouting (and I could easily be wrong, hope someone corrects me then. I'm just going off my own mind and I do not have any documents at hand. If I find any documents supporting anything I say, I will add them in when I have time.)

The words of Consecration are "This is my body" and "This is my blood". These are the words that MUST be said for Proper Form to be met in the Eucharistic Celebration.

If these words are included in the prayer, and the other two necessities are met (Proper Matter - theculturewarrior covered this, Proper Intention - The Priest must be intending to confect (?) the eucharist), then the mass is Valid.

So, if these words of Consecration are 'left out' or changed, I do not believe the Mass would be valid. If any other items (excluding matter and intent) are changed, then the mass might be Illicit, but that does not affect the Validity of the Eucharist.

Hope this helps. Please point out any errors I may have made so they can be corrected.

--

Edit:

From the Compendium of the Catholic Church

[quote]277. How is the celebration of the Holy Eucharist carried out?

1345-1355
1408

The Eucharist unfolds in two great parts which together form one, single act of worship. The Liturgy of the Word involves proclaiming and listening to the Word of God. The Liturgy of the Eucharist includes the presentation of the bread and wine, the prayer or the anaphora containing the words of consecration, and communion.[/quote][quote]280. In what way is the Eucharist a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ?

1362-1367

The Eucharist is a memorial in the sense that it makes present and actual the sacrifice which Christ offered to the Father on the cross, once and for all on behalf of mankind. The sacrificial character of the Holy Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution, “This is my Body which is given for you” and “This cup is the New Covenant in my Blood that will be shed for you” (Luke 22:19-20). The sacrifice of the cross and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one and the same sacrifice. The priest and the victim are the same; only the manner of offering is different: in a bloody manner on the cross, in an unbloody manner in the Eucharist.[/quote]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_c...ium-ccc_en.html[/url]

Edited March 23, 2007 by CatholicCid

[jeffpugh]

Lets keep the heat down you two. Be patient, eh? Meh, I don't really have anything to say on the matter cause it's something I haven't gotten in depth with. So any help here than the one source?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1217839' date='Mar 23 2007, 06:36 PM']Here is a reference to the Eucharistic Celebration in the GIRM

[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect3c[/url]
Here is the use of Mass text, specificaly the Eucharistic Prayers from the GIRM
[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter7.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter7.shtml[/url]
Here are the Basic Texts of the Eucharistic Prayers

[url="http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm"]http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm[/url]

[b][color="#FF0000"]Warning - My own thoughts[/color][/b]

Now, from my own spouting (and I could easily be wrong, hope someone corrects me then. I'm just going off my own mind and I do not have any documents at hand. If I find any documents supporting anything I say, I will add them in when I have time.)

The words of Consecration are "This is my body" and "This is my blood". These are the words that MUST be said for Proper Form to be met in the Eucharistic Celebration.

If these words are included in the prayer, and the other two necessities are met (Proper Matter - theculturewarrior covered this, Proper Intention - The Priest must be intending to confect (?) the eucharist), then the mass is Valid.

So, if these eight words of Consecration are 'left out' or changed, I do not believe the Mass would be valid. If any other items (excluding matter and intent) are changed, then the mass might be Illicit, but that does not affect the Validity of the Eucharist.

Hope this helps. Please point out any errors I may have made so they can be corrected.[/quote]Thanks, Cid, but...
Your posts dealt with the Eucharistic Prayer, not specifically the words needed for Consecration. Your opinion posted seems reasonable, but is not backed up with any documentation.
Gee...

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1217844' date='Mar 23 2007, 04:44 PM']Thanks, Cid, but...
Your posts dealt with the Eucharistic Prayer, not specifically the words needed for Consecration. Your opinion posted seems reasonable, but is not backed up with any documentation.
Gee...[/quote]

I apologize, i started with the basics (full prayers) and tried to specify from there (words of Consecration).

As I said, I was just going stating my opinion, and I will look for more documentation as time allows... Please also read the edit I made quoting the Compendium of the Catholic Church which I do believe specifically state the Words of Consecration.

[color="red"][b]Still my own thoughts and a little aside[/b][/color]

I would like to say that the words are the words Christ himself said and instituted (by the "Do this in memory of me" to his Apostles), but I know that you would much more prefer documentation and such then just my words.


---

Edit:

Got me searching and playing now

Reference to the Words of Consecration from Pope John Paul II in his message to World Mission Sunday 2004

[quote]4. In the Eucharist we relive the mystery of the Redemption culminating in the Lord’s sacrifice, [b]as it is said in the words of consecration: "my body which will be given for you...;…my blood which will be poured out for you" (Lk 22,19-20). [/b]Christ died for all; and for all is the gift of salvation which the Eucharist renders sacramentally present in the course of history: "Do this in memory of me" (Lk 22,19). This mandate is entrusted to ordained ministers through the Sacrament of Holy Orders. To this banquet and sacrifice all men and women are invited so they may share in the very life of Christ: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in him. As I, who am sent by the living Father, myself draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will draw life from me" (Jn 6,56-57). Nourished by Him, believers come to understand that the missionary task means being "acceptable as an offering, made holy by the Holy Spirit" (Rom 15,16), in order to be more and more "one, in heart and mind" (Acts 4,32) and to be witnesses of his love to the ends of the earth.

Journeying through the centuries, reliving every day the Sacrifice of the altar, the Church, the People of God, awaits Christ’s coming in glory. This is proclaimed after the consecration by the Eucharistic assembly gathered around the altar. Time after time with renewed faith the Church repeats her desire for the final encounter with the One who comes to bring his plan of universal salvation to completion.

The Holy Spirit with invisible but powerful working, guides the Christian people on this daily spiritual itinerary on which they inevitably encounter difficulties and experience the mystery of the Cross. The Eucharist is the comfort and the pledge of final triumph for those who fight evil and sin; it is the "bread of life" which sustains those who, in turn, become "bread broken" for others, paying at times even with martyrdom their fidelity to the Gospel.[/quote]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/messages/missions/documents/hf_jp-ii_mes_20040429_world-day-for-missions-2004_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...ns-2004_en.html[/url]

Yes, it is just a message and such, but I found it interesting and will probably post anything interesting I find related to this subject.

Edited March 23, 2007 by CatholicCid

[Budge]

[quote]What's funny is that you guys challenged Budgie to provide Magesterial Documents to prove that she or the priest's answer is wrong, but none of your posts actually quote 'Magesterial Documents' to bring a clear and definitive answer to her question.
What EXACTLY is requred to make the consecration invalid or illicit? Can you provide a definitive document?[/quote]Id like to know that too, and want a DIRECT definitive answer as well..

[quote]
The words of Consecration are "This is my body" and "This is my blood". These are the words that MUST be said for Proper Form to be met in the Eucharistic Celebration.[/quote]

IS THAT SAID ANYWHERE IN THE GIRM because from here I sure didnt see it.