All Anti-catholics Out There!

[socalscout]

Has any of this sunk in? I am reading lines upon lines upon lines of responses to all of your claims about Catholicism and yet you act as if it was never said. No really, you keep on posting contrary to the millionth time you've been told otherwise.

I'm not asking why you have not converted I am asking why you keep asking and repeating the same things over and over when it has been answered extensively?

Did you come here to argue with us? Did you come here to save us? No I truly believe you came here just to hear yourself speak or see yourself write.

Here is an example - Mary worship

You have been told countless of times that we do not worship Mary. We do not and have not ever believed she was divine yet you post about Mary worship over and over again.

Has anything said to you opened any doors? Have you found that maybe you really do not know Catholicism? Have you changed in anyway towards our Faith? Do you have the slightest interest in our Faith? Are you afraid that if you are this much wrong then we would be that much right and if we are right about one thing then maybe we can be right about others?

Is it possible that in the 2000 years of our existence that maybe just maybe there might be an inkling of Truth, huh?

I'm not quoting Scripture or Church fathers, I am just looking at some of the big picture here and it would bring about some questions if I were a non-Catholic.

Aren’t you curious about the answers or do you think you are doing God’s will by attacking the Church?

Oh well. I’m going back to Open Mic.

[Bruce S]

Yesterday, I watched, ENJOYED ... EWTN for about three hours. Here too, I learn.

When you are sticking TO the bible, and social issues, the Catholic Church has some of the best teachers going. So, I watch your TV, read your sites, glean out the core values, and learn.

However, your "distinctives" I fiddler through a mind trained to look first to scripture, and secondly through the overall theme of the bible, and especially the NT.

You want us to "see the light" about such distinctives that Protestants find totally irrelevant to salvation.

For example:

Last night on EWTN Father Carpola[?] [the guy wearing the grey habit, with a beard and bald] and he is interesting, for he is rather like the posters here....very dogmatic on the Catholic faith being the .... way ... to heaven. Anyway, I like him, and dislike him at the same time...so I watch him. Anyway, he did a segment on "Love your Priest" ... he was essentially trying to counter the problems individual priests have encountered, and obliquely dealt with the sexual issues. He did a pretty good job, BUT...

For the most part, I agreed until he ended with....

[paraphrased] "You MUST support your fallen priest, because ONLY with HIS HANDS can Jesus be called down for YOU" [i guess this is the Transubstantiation reference again obliquely]

Now, through MY PROTESTANT trained ears....what I heard was "Your Priest MUST BE SUPPORTED, NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES, OR **YOU** CANT FIND SALVATION"

Now I know that isn't what he said, but he didnt say a Priest should be tossed out, but always supported....that was critical of what I see here, NO MATTER HOW CRAZY, GOOFY, OR ODD...

No matter what, Catholics are lockstep protecting each other. Reminds me of the Mafia actually, the Code of Omerta and all that.

I come here for the DEBATE, and not the document dumping that substitutes for thought on many Catholic posts. Actually, for ME, those document dumps show me a lack of comprehension.

Shorter, concise posts show a mind that can absorb, digest, see the point of things. Document dumpers are those that use massive verbosity to cover up that they won't, or can't, digest things, come to the point, and state it IN THEIR OWN WORDS.

---- But basically ---- YOUR frustration is....

NO MATTER WHAT YOU say....

We don't agree. Grin. Guess why?

REALLY TAKE A SHOT AT MY QUESTION. Why can't you get your points accepted?

Edited January 26, 2004 by Bruce S

[socalscout]

---- But basically ---- YOUR frustration is....

NO MATTER WHAT YOU say....

We don't agree. Grin. Guess why?

REALLY TAKE A SHOT AT MY QUESTION. Why can't you get your points accepted?

It has nothing to do with you agreeing with us. You do not listen to the points being made that is why you do not accept them. If you did then you would actually concede to the fact that we know the Faith better than any of you.

For instance you personally seem to be focused on the individual actions of the members of the Church or the "hypocrisy" of the Church at whole. You have a problem with the Hierarchy and anything that resembles a bureaucracy. You like to quote conspiracy from a varied amount of sources. Correct me if I am wrong on any of this. Yet when a Catholic says, "no those sources are wrong" you still do not believe him/her. Why?

Not one of you will say "Oh I guess I was wrong". No you accuse us of being blind to our own Faith and anything that involves our Church. I think you think there is some Watergate like scandals going on behind our backs and us ignorant Catholics can't see what the rest of the world sees. Bruce, truly I think you really want to believe these things that you read and that is why you won't accept anything from a Catholic who tells you otherwise.

But let’s play your game. What if the Church was filled to the brim with gay clergy and we actually killed 68 million people back in history would this nullify the doctrines of the Church if it was the True Church? No, so applying conspiracy theory or quoting Father "so and so" has no bearing on Church Doctrine.

You guys are not getting it. You continue to ignore everything that has been said. It’s that simple. The people on this board spend more than half the time correcting you of your ignorance of the Church than actually teaching you.

So again here is the "SHOT" at your question. You do not want to hear the points being made.

[Bruce S]

For instance you personally seem to be focused on the individual actions of the members of the Church or the "hypocrisy" of the Church at whole. You have a problem with the Hierarchy and anything that resembles a bureaucracy. You like to quote conspiracy from a varied amount of sources. Correct me if I am wrong on any of this. Yet when a Catholic says, "no those sources are wrong" you still do not believe him/her. Why?

Excellent observations. Frankly, you have me to a "T"

What drives me, always has, is understanding what is real, what is done for personal gain, money, power, prestige, that sort of thing.

I completely have taken to heart Jesus's problems with HIS denomination, Judaism.

He came, looked at what man had done to the revelations of God to the Jews, the power structure, legalisms, doctrinal obtuseness, Rabbinical interpretations, ritual wasting of time, ... EVERYTHING and anything that served to blind men to what God wanted.

As a new Christian and a former Catholic, I waded into theology. Dabbled here and there, looking with a mind focused on what the real message was.

Not easy, none of us can really know, so we seek, grapple, and our quest is ongoing.

Now for an aside. For 10 years I ran or participated in a political discussion site on Compuserve, LONG before the internet, it was ultra hard core. Every day, the abortionists, anti-abortionists, liberals, conservatives, came and fought like cats and dogs. This forced me into studying power structures, political ones, religious ones, and cultural ones. Without going into massive detail, we all got a real lesson in the "dark side" of religion, and as would be the case, since the Catholic Church is the oldest and most political of all denominations, studying Jesuits, Papal power, and even Satanism and Witchcraft were daily fodder for discussion. After that, I operated a discussion site for another industy, one that came to be the dominant one in that field. So, being online, and swinging hard is something I have 15 years experience with.

One commonality I have seen over and over, is paperwork that is great, but NOT FOLLOWED.

For example: To put this in Catholic terminology. The Supreme Court allowed abortion on demand. THAT IS PRACTICE.

However, the CONSTITUTION gives the Supreme Court NO POWER to do what they did.

They used PRACTICE to overrule the paperwork.

See?

Catholics DO, what the paperwork says they do not. And no matter how much Protestants SHOW YOU, that for example: Mary IS WORSHIPPED, not just venerated, you cite paperwork as proof that we are wrong.

Essentially, you ask us to BELIEVE the document, and ignore the reality.

Does this make any sense to you?

[cmotherofpirl]

"[paraphrased] "You MUST support your fallen priest, because ONLY with HIS HANDS can Jesus be called down for YOU" [i guess this is the Transubstantiation reference again obliquely]

Now, through MY PROTESTANT trained ears....what I heard was "Your Priest MUST BE SUPPORTED, NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES, OR **YOU** CANT FIND

SALVATION""

Hear is where your prot trained ears are wrong. Ordination leaves an indelible mark on the soul, like Baptism does. "Thou are a priest forever". So no matter what has done, besides the ordinary respect for him as a human being, there is also respect for him because of his ordination. He has held Jesus Christ in his hands. THat is why a priest is always held to a higher standard, and when a priest falls, it is more tragic.

[cmotherofpirl]

One commonality I have seen over and over, is paperwork that is great, but NOT FOLLOWED.

For example: To put this in Catholic terminology. The Supreme Court allowed abortion on demand. THAT IS PRACTICE.

However, the CONSTITUTION gives the Supreme Court NO POWER to do what they did.

They used PRACTICE to overrule the paperwork.

See?

Catholics DO, what the paperwork says they do not. And no matter how much Protestants SHOW YOU, that for example: Mary IS WORSHIPPED, not just venerated, you cite paperwork as proof that we are wrong.

Essentially, you ask us to BELIEVE the document, and ignore the reality.

Does this make any sense to you?

THe problem is Bruce, I have never met a catholic who worships Mary. Never.

However, I have met protestants who worship the bible.

[Bruce S]

THe problem is Bruce, I have never met a catholic who worships Mary. Never.

However, I have met protestants who worship the bible

I guess we just observe things through different fiddlers.

Mary IS worshipped, despite the "claims" otherwise. We know that you would LOVE to have this be venerate/intercede, but in truth, millions of Catholics have Mary as the fourth person of the "Trinity" in their hearts, practice, and prayers.

I don't worship, venerate, or hold the Bible than to be anything but the BEST revealed word of God we have, the foundational documents. It is not the sum total, it is the basis upon which all other teachings OF MEN, are compared to.

Edited January 26, 2004 by Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Hear is where your prot trained ears are wrong. Ordination leaves an indelible mark on the soul, like Baptism does. "Thou are a priest forever". So no matter what has done, besides the ordinary respect for him as a human being, there is also respect for him because of his ordination. He has held Jesus Christ in his hands. THat is why a priest is always held to a higher standard, and when a priest falls, it is more tragic.

He has no magic in his hands. No more than a minister does when passing out communion. He is NOT a "gatekeeper" between you and Jesus, placing him in a role where the DENOMINATION can determine who gets to participate. It is merely one more, in a long line of distinctives of the Catholic Church that gives them TEMPORAL POWER to control people.

Furthermore when you drive the homosexuals out of the priesthood and I'm with you. Until then....

Edited January 26, 2004 by Bruce S

[socalscout]

Catholics DO, what the paperwork says they do not. And no matter how much Protestants SHOW YOU, that for example: Mary IS WORSHIPPED, not just venerated, you cite paperwork as proof that we are wrong.

Essentially, you ask us to BELIEVE the document, and ignore the reality.

Does this make any sense to you?

Yeah it makes total sense but it is wrong. Either your idea of worship is different than ours or you just don't get it. You have been told that over and over. Not just "Read the paper" but in our works we do not see Mary as divine.

You are basically saying "You worship Mary but you don't know you do". So there you are telling us about how we practice our Faith. Why don't you accept that we are not the dumb and blind that you portray us as?

You really don't know Catholics do you? I mean the Catholics whom I know that know the Church have followed it to letter of the law. They are perfect examples of our Faith and they are both Lay and Religious. You yourself have given praise to John Paul II.

You have been soured by man made political systems. Your way of looking at any structured organization is with a cynical eye and it is very easy for you to believe what you read. Why is it so hard to believe us?

[Theologian in Training]

I guess we just observe things through different fiddlers.

Mary IS worshipped, despite the "claims" otherwise. We know that you would LOVE to have this be venerate/intercede, but in truth, millions of Catholics have Mary as the fourth person of the "Trinity" in their hearts, practice, and prayers.

I don't worship, venerate, or hold the Bible than to be anything but the BEST revealed word of God we have, the foundational documents. It is not the sum total, it is the basis upon which all other teachings OF MEN, are compared to.

Bruce,

Just a quick question. When one bows or curseys a King or Queen would you say they are worshipping that person?

God Bless

[Laudate_Dominum]

Has any of this sunk in? I am reading lines upon lines upon lines of responses to all of your claims about Catholicism and yet you act as if it was never said. No really, you keep on posting contrary to the millionth time you've been told otherwise.

Amen. This is such a frustrating thing. :wacko:

[M.SIGGA]

Bruce,

Just a quick question. When one bows or curseys a King or Queen would you say they are worshipping that person?

God Bless

a jehovahs witness would think this is worship so they don't even pledge allegence to the flag; and high church anglicans and some old school lutheran churches like saints and orders as much as we do too. all prots are different yo.

[M.SIGGA]

Mary IS worshipped, despite the "claims" otherwise. We know that you would LOVE to have this be venerate/intercede, but in truth, millions of Catholics have Mary as the fourth person of the "Trinity" in their hearts, practice, and prayers.

how do you speak for millions of catholics. my whole giant family is catholic and most of my childhood friend are catholic and they would laugh until tears at this nonesense. you might have been catholic once, so I'm guessing your inner-circle 'knowledge' comes from your own personal warped catholic experience, but the rest of the world doesn't operate this way. please come back to reality so we can have a constructive debate. you are starting to sound like "Truth."

[Theologian in Training]

a jehovahs witness would think this is worship so they don't even pledge allegence to the flag; and high church anglicans and some old school lutheran churches like saints and orders as much as we do too. all prots are different yo.

I understand the relevance to my question with your first answer, however, what do the Anglican and Lutheran churches have to do with it. I am not trying to be rude, I am just trying to figure out the connection.

God Bless

[phatcatholic]

my problem is this: since when is a religion judged based upon the actions of the those who don't even follow the religion properly? since when do those who incorrectly live their faith become the reality of that faith they are betraying? so you know some catholics who actually worship mary........somehow this means that Catholicism worships Mary, even though the doctrine is explicit in its denial of this, and even though thousands and thousands of Catholics live an orthodox veneration of Mary? to me, it just makes sense that the representatives of a religion are those who are actually faithful to the religion. this is just logical to me. but apparently this isn't logical to everyone.

so, there are some catholics who don't understand the role of Mary. we know this. what are you trying to prove by pointing this out? there are misguided people in every religion and denomination. there are people who rely SOLELY on the Bible, and will not even look at anything outside of it, even though u swear that's not what Sola Scriptura is. your and circle are quite adament about letting us know that those particular protestants are not representative of protestantism.

i also like how, when u find catholics who don't live their faith properly, somehow that's the Church's fault. like, u want it to do more, but then in the very next breath chastise it for being to intrusive and having too many rules. God forbid the Church actually lead the people. God forbid people start being responsible for their own actions and their own UN-orthodox ways, instead of blaming everything on the Church, and saying, "well the school i was brought up in didn't teach me right" or "oh, i had a bad priest growing up."

the right information is out there, for everyone to know and to grasp and to live by. and thousands upon thousands of good, orthodox catholics are out there too.

bottom line: you're gonna find what u want to find.

i'm done venting now..........pax christi,

phatcatholic