Pulling For Straws

[ironmonk]

When anti-Catholics start to know their wrong, but cannot admit it, they drop the subject and move on to something else. I'm sure that many of you have encountered this. So many anti-Catholics cannot admit that the Church might be right on anything. This is quite sad, it seems they miss the point of dialoging about Christ... it's not to prove the Catholic Church wrong, the point of dialog is to come closer to Christ.

I've seen many anti-Catholics get caught up in trying to prove the Catholic Church wrong. So much so that they come to conclusions that if they would stop and think a minute, they would loose faith in God altogether or become Catholic because their conclusions contradict each other. There is a lack of harmony of Scripture, History, and doctrine in their theology.

A prime example of this is when an anti-Catholic in a desperate attempt to prove the Church wrong, states that "The Catholic Church is not true because the Bishops who are supposed to be successors of the Apostles are not doing signs and wonders".

This struggle to pull straws falls apart from many angles. Let's first examine a few different translations of the Scripture that they pull this from.

2 Corin 12:12 (NAB)

The signs of an apostle were performed among you with all endurance, signs and wonders, and mighty deeds.

2 Corinthians 12:12 (Douay-Rhiems)

Yet the signs of my apostleship have been wrought on you, in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

We first see that this is past tense talking about miracles that were worked from the Apostles. No where does it state that this is a requirement of proof of discipleship, or a requirement for the successors of the Apostles. They try desperately to discredit the Church base on this verse, because some Bishops have not been given visible gifts of the Spirit. Even though many have. They fail to ask "What are gifts of the Spirit", which I will answer with Scripture shortly.

They will say that the Bishops of Catholic Church are not the successors of the Apostles because of no signs, then turn around and say that neither do they have the successors of the Apostles. They fail to realize by saying such things they claim that the Church was overcome by the netherworld if there are no successor of the Apostles.

These same people will deny the miracles of Fatima, Lourdes, St. Pio, even in the light of St. John 14:12

Now, we rightly ask:

What are the gifts of the Spirit?

1 Corin. 12:7

To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

8 To one is given through the Spirit the expression of wisdom; to another the expression of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

9 to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit;

10 to another mighty deeds; to another prophecy; to another discernment of spirits; to another varieties of tongues; to another interpretation of tongues.

We see these gifts in many Bishops of the Catholic Church... Priests and laymen alike have been blessed with such gifts.

The whole point is that in this example, the argument used against the Church has been poorly thought out, and is an attempt to grasp at straws.

Why would someone need to grasp at straws if the Catholic Church was not true?

Ah, there is the major problem... they don't want it to be true... so they grasp at straws and start to throw everything including the kitchen sink trying to disprove the Church.

If the Catholic Church was false, then it would be plain to see when looked at in the light of history and Scripture. The Catholic Church is affirmed by the attacks of the anti-Catholics. With every vehemently anti-Catholic site on the net, more true believers are pushed to the truth of Catholicism by seeking out what the Catholic Church has to say.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited January 26, 2004 by ironmonk

[Bruce S]

When anti-Catholics start to know their wrong, but cannot admit it, they drop the subject and move on to something else. I'm sure that many of you have encountered this. So many anti-Catholics cannot admit that the Church might be right on anything.

Fiddle faddle.

You ARE RIGHT on "many things" duh.

You ARE WRONG on "other things" duh.

NEVER EVER NOT ONCE....

Does a Catholic disagree with His/Her church. NEVER.

That is not thinking, that is the sign of a dogmatic.

For example, Protestants think that our differences are our strength.

We revel in that, to us it really doesn't matter. Go to Promise Keepers rally. I did this summer. 17,000 men, all from different denominations, all worshipping God and His son Jesus. We AGREE to agree, and have fun disagreeing.

There was NOT ONE document in sight.

Prayer, worship, and love were the theme.

I guess you would have to step outside your little myopic vision of what this is to us to understand.

To us, what counts is Jesus/God....NOT "Mother Church" that is why we can and do change denominations all the time, salvation to us has NOTHING whatsoever to do with where you attend church, and MOST CERTAINLY no "Man" can overrule the RED LETTERS, nor substitue himself as the center of teaching. They are ALL just preachers, that includes the Pope, just another minister with a message, NOT a temporal power broker.

Edited January 26, 2004 by Bruce S

[ironmonk]

Fiddle faddle.

You ARE RIGHT on "many things" duh.

You ARE WRONG on "other things" duh.

NEVER EVER NOT ONCE....

Does a Catholic disagree with His/Her church. NEVER.

That is not thinking, that is the sign of a dogmatic.

For example, Protestants think that our differences are our strength.

We revel in that, to us it really doesn't matter. Go to Promise Keepers rally. I did this summer. 17,000 men, all from different denominations, all worshipping God and His son Jesus. We AGREE to agree, and have fun disagreeing.

There was NOT ONE document in sight.

Prayer, worship, and love were the theme.

I guess you would have to step outside your little myopic vision of what this is to us to understand.

To us, what counts is Jesus/God....NOT "Mother Church" that is why we can and do change denominations all the time, salvation to us  has NOTHING whatsoever to do with where you attend church, and MOST CERTAINLY no "Man" can overrule the RED LETTERS, nor substitue himself as the center of teaching. They are ALL just preachers, that includes the Pope, just another minister with a message, NOT a temporal power broker.

Bruce,

The ONLY way we know God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is because of the Church. The Catholic Church is never wrong on faith or morals... as has been taught since 33 AD.

One Faith, not 2, 3, 10, or 34,000... One.

A Catholic laymen disagreeing with the Church does not make it two faiths. It is still one Faith, under the One Church that Christ built.

The Catholic Church is centered on Christ. Everything the Catholic Church does is for Christ.

What you preach goes against the bible.... division is nothing to be proud of, nor is denomination hopping.... it's unbiblical.

Let's look at what the Bible says....

St. Mark 3:24

If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Eph. 4:5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Phil. 4:1

Therefore, my brothers, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, in this way stand firm in the Lord, beloved.

2 I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche 2 to come to a mutual understanding in the Lord.

Phil. 2:1

If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy,

2complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing.

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

1 Corin 11:2

I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

St John 20:21

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

St James 5:14

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,

15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

Matt. 18:18

"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"

To ignore the Church is to ignore God... God speaks to us and teaches us through His One Church... One Faith... that Christ built in 33 AD, and will never be overcome. It will be like a city on a mountain which cannot be hidden (St. Matt 5:13-16)

If it wasn't for the Church, we would not have the Bible... The men that gave us the Bible by the Authority given to them by Christ is the group that knows it best.

There are many more verses and historical facts that discredit your statements...

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/anointing_of_the_sick.html

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John

Rejecting the Church is like trying to play football without knowing the rules, while using a baseball and bat.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited January 26, 2004 by ironmonk

[Anna]

Does a Catholic disagree with His/Her church. NEVER.

That is not thinking, that is the sign of a dogmatic.

For example, Protestants think that our differences are our strength.

We revel in that, to us it really doesn't matter. Go to Promise Keepers rally. I did this summer. 17,000 men, all from different denominations, all worshipping God and His son Jesus. We AGREE to agree, and have fun disagreeing.

There was NOT ONE document in sight.

Prayer, worship, and love were the theme.

I guess you would have to step outside your little myopic vision of what this is to us to understand.

you've obviously never been to Fatima, or to Washington DC on January 22nd...or to a papal Mass...

phew, I've never been so proud to be a Catholic as the first time I participated in the March for Life in DC. So many Knights, priests, nuns, rosaries...! Wow. amesome...For miles as far as the eye could see...

The last papal Mass I attended was some eight years ago in Central Park...The faithful stood in lines moving an inch at a time for hours! We filled that Park! It was glorious.

Bruce, your bitterness toward the Church is so loud, it hurts my ears. Maybe you could tone it down a little.

God is love.

Get some God. :wub:

[christopher]

Have you seen the book "why I am a Catholic" by Gary Wills? The whole book is based on staying with your parent (church) even when the parent does things sometimes that are wrong. To be a Catholic you by no means throw out your ability to reason, whether it be towards the Pope or any other matter or person. The book is written by a long time proud, happy Catholic, who is FULL of valid criticism! Pax Christi.

[Dave]

Have you seen the book "why I am a Catholic" by Gary Wills? The whole book is based on staying with your parent (church) even when the parent does things sometimes that are wrong. To be a Catholic you by no means throw out your ability to reason, whether it be towards the Pope or any other matter or person. The book is written by a long time proud, happy Catholic, who is FULL of valid criticism! Pax Christi.

Garry Wills is bad news! He's just an anti-Catholic who calls himself a Catholic. Proceed with GREAT caution.

[Jake Huether]

The whole book is based on staying with your parent (church) even when the parent does things sometimes that are wrong.

Except that this parent, the Catholic Church, never does anything wrong. Because the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, the Spotless Bride. She cannot error, though those within her may.

[PedroX]

Bruce,

Surely you know that Gary Wills wrote that book because he had to "prove" he was still a Catholic? He went around saying so many anti-Catholic lies that he finally felt compelled to say he was "still a Catholic". Wow, great source to prove your point.

peace...

[willguy]

NEVER EVER NOT ONCE....

Does a Catholic disagree with His/Her church. NEVER.

Bruce, you have to approach it from our POV. Suppose you believed that everything that someone taught was pure truth. Would you ever disagree with them? No, because you'd obviously be wrong.

that is why we can and do change denominations all the time

So you can just change your beliefs like that, on a whim?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I don't get how there can be anymore than one faith. Some Christians accept transubstantiation, some don't, etc. It's one or the other, only one is right.

[phatcatholic]

Fiddle faddle.

You ARE RIGHT on "many things" duh.

You ARE WRONG on "other things" duh.

NEVER EVER NOT ONCE....

Does a Catholic disagree with His/Her church. NEVER.

That is not thinking, that is the sign of a dogmatic.

For example, Protestants think that our differences are our strength.

We revel in that, to us it really doesn't matter. Go to Promise Keepers rally. I did this summer. 17,000 men, all from different denominations, all worshipping God and His son Jesus. We AGREE to agree, and have fun disagreeing.

There was NOT ONE document in sight.

Prayer, worship, and love were the theme.

I guess you would have to step outside your little myopic vision of what this is to us to understand.

To us, what counts is Jesus/God....NOT "Mother Church" that is why we can and do change denominations all the time, salvation to us has NOTHING whatsoever to do with where you attend church, and MOST CERTAINLY no "Man" can overrule the RED LETTERS, nor substitue himself as the center of teaching. They are ALL just preachers, that includes the Pope, just another minister with a message, NOT a temporal power broker.

well then, i guess it doesn't matter whether you have a correct interpretation on the Bible or not, not even on a doctrine as fundamental and essential as salvation.

what was i thinking...........

[ironmonk]

Bruce,

Please meditate on all that you've posted here on this thread...

By your very posts on this thread you have no right to say that the Catholic Church is wrong.

By your very words on this thread, you must look at the Catholic Church as you look at other protestant churches; as another option. If you don't, then you've judged unfairly. If you don't you've contradicted yourself.

Just a few thoughts... all rhetoric, not meant to argue, just to get you to think.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

i don't understand why Truth is so subjective in Protestantism. like Truth can just change every time you change your mind about something. i thought Truth was an objective entity.......

[Anna]

protestant view: Relativism. Truth is relative. If one denomination holds a "truth" you don't like, you may leave, and join a denomination which teaches the opposite "truth," with which you agree!

Catholic view: Absolute. Truth is absolute and undeniable. It cannot be compromised, nor contradicted. It never changes.

Pax Christi. <><