Mel Gibson...exercise Caution, Please!

[hyperdulia again]

Catholic enough...hmm...there's lot's of room where i won't deny someone's catholicity, things that would make some people here blush...but denying that the pope is the pope strikes me as being an un-Catholic position...like denying the trinity...the eucharist...communion of saints...etc.

this is an act more dangerous than any of the moral dissent we get up in arms about...this man has said that the pontiff isn't the pontiff and by implication that the sheep are goats.

[cmotherofpirl]

Until I hear Mel Gibson say the Pope isn't the Pope, or that he is outside the Church, I will not judge the man.

Who knows what the Holy Spirit is doing to his life?

THe sins of the father are NOT automatically the sins of the son.

[dUSt]

After seeing Mel Gibson live, watching his interviews on EWTN, hearing about him from "inside sources", and especially after watching his movie, all I need to know about the man is that he has a tremendous love of Catholicism, Mary, the Eucharist, the Saints and the Latin mass.

Does he think that JPII is a valid pope? I don't know. I haven't read anything about him denying JPII's authority--then again, I haven't read anything about him acknowledging his authority. What is his stance on Vatican II? I think the only reliable source is his official website, which states, "Gibson is a member of a traditionalist Roman Catholic group that rejects some of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council and still uses the old-style Latin Mass."

Now, to me "rejecting some of the reforms" is a lot different than saying, "rejects all" or "rejects the authority of the Vatican or pope". I know many faithful Catholics who "reject some" of the reforms of Vatican II, yet still view it as a valid council, and still recognize the authority of the pope and the Vatican.

And by rule, I don't give much credibility to anything that comes form the New York Times.

I'll hold off judgement on Mel Gibson until we hear from him regarding the matter--and maybe it's God's will that Mel doesn't clarify his position until he's at a certain point in his spiritual journey.

God bless.

[IcePrincessKRS]

:)

I like you dUSt. Almost as much as a Snickers bar. But not quite. I like dogs, too, but Matt doesn't. I like Mel, too. And....

[hyperdulia again]

Who recognizes the authority of "wolves in sheeps clothing"?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Catholic enough...hmm...there's lot's of room where i won't deny someone's catholicity, things that would make some people here blush...but denying that the pope is the pope strikes me as being an un-Catholic position...like denying the trinity...the eucharist...communion of saints...etc.

As I pointed out on another thread, I wouldn't say sedevacantists deny the pope in that sense (assuming Mel is an SV). They believe in the truths of the Catholic Faith including the papacy, so it's not the same as denying the Trinity or Eucharist. Their problem is that they think Vatican II and the Popes since John XXIII have officially taught heresy which goes against the infallability of the Pope (which they hold), therefore they conclude that John XXIII and his successors have been false, anti-popes which would also mean that Vatican II was not valid.

I would consider Mel (if the rumors are true) to be a catholic who is in error and schism, but nonetheless holds to the Catholic Faith. I realize this is my opinion and I'm not asserting it as if it's dogma, if you aren't confortable considering someone in that state a catholic I have no problem with that. For me it's more a technicality based on what your criteria are for considering one a Catholic. In the full sense of the word it implies union with the Catholic Church, obviously. But it has often been used in a secondary sense to describe schismatic groups who still adhere substantially to the truths of the Catholic Faith, that is the sense in which I mean it in this regard.

Edited January 26, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Laudate_Dominum]

And I guess it depends on the context. If I was on national television and someone asked me about Mel & the Church, I would stress the fact that he is not in union with the Church and does not represent authentic Catholicism. However if I was engaged in dialogue with Mel, I would approach him as one who loves the Catholic Faith and tries to live it out as best as he knows how.

[Theoketos]

I myself hope that the movie will be grand and will not reflect the schismatic "traditionalist" beliefs that Gibson holds, only the traditional Roman Catholic beliefs.

I have seen it. And whether the Holy Father said it our not, It is is as it was.

[BLAZEr]

I like you dUSt. Almost as much as a Snickers bar. But not quite. I like dogs, too, but Matt doesn't. I like Mel, too. And....

Did you just call dUSt a dog?

[PedroX]

And I guess it depends on the context. If I was on national television and someone asked me about Mel & the Church, I would stress the fact that he is not in union with the Church and does not represent authentic Catholicism. However if I was engaged in dialogue with Mel, I would approach him as one who loves the Catholic Faith and tries to live it out as best as he knows how.

Where have you seen Mr. Gibson say that he is not in union with Rome? Where has he said that he is in Schism?

How could you go on national television and say such things without having heard him say it first? I haven't seen any direct quotes from him that indicate such a stance. As Dust said, many good, faithful Catholics have issues with some of the points of VII and are in full union with Rome.

peace...

[Greenelf288]

Does he think that JPII is a valid pope?

i read this really long article on him once where he was saying that we haven't had a "real" Pope since before Vatican 2... so i don't know.

i don't want to judge him, because he seems like an amesome guy... so maybe that statement was taken out of context... maybe not. and besides, he totally agrees with all Church doctrine. but either way, the Passion seems like an amesome movie, regardless of Gibson's flaws.

[Donna]

It is really good that these things are being discussed.

May it continue...

[Oik]

I have read and posted many different things about Mel Gibson. I have also watched both his interviews on EWTN, his interview on ABC, and Jim Cavizels interview on EWTN.

First, there is so alot of confusion.

Second, inquiring into who Mel Gibson is and what he believes IS IMPORTANT.

Thirdly, out of Mel Gibson's own mouth in several instances, he says I am ROMAN CATHOLIC.

So to clarify and . First, Mel is roman catholic. He has said that he follows the Holy cathic church and it teachings. He isn't anti-semitic. He new movie is studied and profoundly provocative. Second, we all need to know what people believe, what they stand for and what side they are on. It is hypocritical for us to "turn a blind eye" to the sin of a public offical that claims to be catholic. This is why bishops are considering denying communion to those who support and aid in abortion (Sirach 1:13, "if you touch tar, it will stick to you..."). Lastly, Mel Gibson has defended his faith. He has expressed his difference of belief with his father (a schismatic that believes in "traditionalism" and that "there hasn't been a reall pope in 60 years"). Unfortunatly the media, confusing others with semantic (sp), has led people to believe that Mel and his father have the same beliefs. Mel Gibson, even in his ABC interview explained that he will not allow the media to drive a wedge between him and his father (because of thier differing beliefs). Also, the church he aided in building has latin mass preformed by "a properly ordained priest." I think it makes people uneasy that Mel Gibson would fund a church, he has money, why not? I wish more rich catholics would fund churches. We would be able to have pews in my church, statues and icon-style roman paniting of saints, and stained glass windows filled with the beautiful depictions of the heroes and martyrs of our faith. Also, the church he fiunded is not in his house or even on his property. It isn't named "our lady of malibu." Actually, it is named Holy Family Chapel.

All I mean to say is that we should be quick to pray for other and slow to judgement and anger. We should choose who we label as "schismatic" very cafefully. We must also be very cautious of what we allow the media to convice us of because they are just looking for a story. My final point is this, if Mel Gibson was schismatic and a danger to the Catholic church, then why does EWTN keep promoting his movie and why are there so many catholics praising it?

Edited February 17, 2004 by Oik

[L5]

I didn't get that from the interview at all. I thought that he felt the Church has been a mess for the past 40 years and when he says "properly ordained", he meant ordained in the tridentine rite and not the Post-Vatican II rite. I don't really know. He might be schismatic but I don't think he poses a danger to the Catholic Church. Jim Caviezel is solid and I think they've had Legionaries say mass on the movie set a few times (or maybe all the time!). I'm really confused about it, because I remember from the EWTN interview that he had lots of Jesuits on the set.

[socalscout]

Danger Will Robinson, Socal has read Canon! If you accuse Mel Gibson of schism based solely on his chapel that he built then you must know Canon refering to private chapels.

Can. 1226 The term private chapel means a place which, by permission of the local Ordinary, is set aside for divine worship, for the convenience of one or more individuals.

Can. 1227 Bishops can set up for their own use a private chapel which enjoys the same rights as an oratory.

Can. 1228 Without prejudice to the provision of Can. 1227, the permission of the local Ordinary is required for the celebration of Mass and of other sacred functions in any private chapel.

Can. 1229 It is appropriate that oratories and private chapels be blessed according to the rite prescribed in the liturgical books. They must, however, be reserved for divine worship only and be freed from all domestic use.

Do you know if Cardinal Mahony did not give Mel Gibson permission to build his chapel? If he gave him permission and Gibson has not openly defied the Holy Father then where is the problem?