Conference Seeks Warmer Welcome For Gays

[thessalonian]

By the way, I'll have you know that a few years back I participated in a demonstration against the rainbow sashers. Your new Catholics aren't the first one's to figure out we have to deal with people charitably. I was quite charitable even when I was threatened by one man.

[N/A Gone]

Thes,

On a side note. Do you mind keeping me connected to speakers and happenings in the mpls/st paul area? Im in the dark boonies of rochester

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1213738' date='Mar 14 2007, 06:35 PM']Thes,

On a side note. Do you mind keeping me connected to speakers and happenings in the mpls/st paul area? Im in the dark boonies of rochester[/quote]


Sure. You know Fr. Corapi will be at St. Thomas on April 14? Get your tickes soon. It's filling up.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1213737' date='Mar 14 2007, 07:32 PM']By the way, I'll have you know that a few years back I participated in a demonstration against the rainbow sashers. Your new Catholics aren't the first one's to figure out we have to deal with people charitably. I was quite charitable even when I was threatened by one man.[/quote]

But how is demonstrating considered a charitable action? I understand you were charitable in not retaliating against the guy who threatened you, but in that guy's eyes, you threw the first punch by showing up with a sign. It doesn't matter that you are preaching the truth if they aren't receiving it. Does this not concern anyone? Or does it just make us feel good that we protested? I don't ask that question to accuse you... I'm asking myself the same question. I feel like it would be easy to show up and protest, but it's so much more difficult to build real relationships with liberal Catholics, learn where they come from, what brings them to challenge Church teaching, and how we can learn to relate the truth in a way that makes sense with them?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1213714' date='Mar 14 2007, 05:52 PM']So you have all the answers oh luminous one. Tell me, how many millitant gays have you turned around? Have you gotten to two yet. I have rethought my sign but apparently your about bashing my ideas so what's the point.[/quote]

I'm curious, do you see the irony in how you are reacting to my comments and how the gay and lesbian community reacts to protestors showing up at their conferences? I'm not saying I'm right... in the past, I have tended to be the type who avoided witnessing to the truth out of self-consciousness. At the same time, I've always found the "why" behind what people believe more interesting that the simple "what."

My question is, what brings gays and lesbians to this "militant" attitude in the first place? It's gotta be more than simple disagreement. I've talked to a few gays/lesbians about this topic and they weren't militant at all, despite our disagreement. But I also didn't come out with proclamations about how evil they are without even so much as my reasons for why I would say such a thing. I think it's the perceived unreasonableness of the Church's teaching that bothers people the most. All they see is protests and anger.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1213714' date='Mar 14 2007, 05:52 PM']If you knew anything about cpsmc you would know that's exaclty what you are talking about if you are supporting this conferrence in any way. If you knew the situation in Minnesota you would know that. But you don't and you like to spout off at someone who opposes such things.[/quote]

I don't know the situation in Minnesota. I've been told that my diocese, Louisville, is one of the most liberal in the country, but from the sound of it we aren't nearly that bad.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1213714' date='Mar 14 2007, 05:52 PM']What people's stories? Do you even know what the agenda of the conference is. It's not about gay's telling their stories. Its about how to promote their agenda in the Church. More spouting off. By the way my Bishop discourages attendance. But that apparently doesn't mean much to you.[/quote]

I understand the conference's agenda, and attending probably isn't a good idea, but I really don't see how protesting does any good. They already know the Church disagrees with them, hence the conference If you can tell me how protesting has born any fruit, then I'm open to changing my opinion.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1213714' date='Mar 14 2007, 05:52 PM']The Church cannot help those who won't acknoledge their sin and the sacraments are more a hinderance than a help. See 1 Cor 11 if you don't believe me. They probably would have killed Paul in a relativistic society. Saying Sodomites won't enter the kingdom and all. Oh wait, they did back then didn't they. He put that somewhere where it would be put before peoples eyes for 2000 years. Do you suppose he put it in there so that those who weren't sodomites could point fingers. I highly doudt it.[/quote]

Well, I have two challenges to that. One, Paul's letters weren't circulated to all the public. They were only read within established church communities where people already accepted the Church's authority. Second, when Paul was in a secular setting, such as the Areopagus in Athens, he began by finding the missing pieces of their existing faith and culture and related the Gospel in a way that filled in what was missing and this method bore fruit in the new converts mentioned in Acts 17:34. Paul's example here is what I believe will be more effective in spreading the Gospel in today's society. Of course, I'm sure Paul is a better example than I am

[Sirklawd]

"but those attending a weekend symposium say the church is defined by worshipers, not Vatican pronouncements."

BWAHAWHAWHAHHAHAHAAH

HAHAHAHA

this makes no sense at all, and not just from a Catholic standpoint. That's just outright the dumbest thing ive ever heard. It's like they think religion is a business, that if the customers are mad, the religion has to change, or else go out of business. Dont people realize that a system of beliefs stands on its own. There could be no one in the world that believes in the Catholicism (or any relegion), but all those beliefs that make up Catholicism would [i]still be there[/i], you cant change it. It's impossible. The customer is wrong.

wait wait, im not done laughing..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1214319' date='Mar 15 2007, 07:05 PM']But how is demonstrating considered a charitable action? I understand you were charitable in not retaliating against the guy who threatened you, but in that guy's eyes, you threw the first punch by showing up with a sign. It doesn't matter that you are preaching the truth if they aren't receiving it. Does this not concern anyone? Or does it just make us feel good that we protested? I don't ask that question to accuse you... I'm asking myself the same question. I feel like it would be easy to show up and protest, but it's so much more difficult to build real relationships with liberal Catholics, learn where they come from, what brings them to challenge Church teaching, and how we can learn to relate the truth in a way that makes sense with them?[/quote]
So now speaking out against moves to "legitimize" immorality within the Church is uncharitable??

Should tell that to St. Paul, or Jesus Himself!

Christ drove the money-changers from the temple with a whip, yet we are supposed to welcome those actively promoting immoral lifestyles into the Church in the name of "building real relationships with liberal Catholics"??!

It's posts like yours that make me weep for the state of the Church today.


Again, this is not about welcoming repentent sinners into the Church; this is about tolerating deliberate attempts to undermine the Church's moral teachings, and be accepting of immoral behavior.
The "gay rights movement" has absolutely no place in the Church.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Sirklawd' post='1214547' date='Mar 16 2007, 11:02 AM']"but those attending a weekend symposium say the church is defined by worshipers, not Vatican pronouncements."

BWAHAWHAWHAHHAHAHAAH

HAHAHAHA

this makes no sense at all, and not just from a Catholic standpoint. That's just outright the dumbest thing ive ever heard. It's like they think religion is a business, that if the customers are mad, the religion has to change, or else go out of business. Dont people realize that a system of beliefs stands on its own. There could be no one in the world that believes in the Catholicism (or any relegion), but all those beliefs that make up Catholicism would [i]still be there[/i], you cant change it. It's impossible. The customer is wrong.

wait wait, im not done laughing..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH[/quote]
If religion is just like a business with customers, the "customers" who don't like it can always go to the Episcopalians down the street.

This is a satanic movement to destroy the Church from within.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1214748' date='Mar 16 2007, 11:20 PM']So now speaking out against moves to "legitimize" immorality within the Church is uncharitable??[/quote]

Yelling at people while holding a poster stating some bumper sticker theology? Yeah, that's uncharitable.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1214748' date='Mar 16 2007, 11:20 PM']Should tell that to St. Paul, or Jesus Himself!

Christ drove the money-changers from the temple with a whip, yet we are supposed to welcome those actively promoting immoral lifestyles into the Church in the name of "building real relationships with liberal Catholics"??!

It's posts like yours that make me weep for the state of the Church today.
Again, this is not about welcoming repentent sinners into the Church; this is about tolerating deliberate attempts to undermine the Church's moral teachings, and be accepting of immoral behavior.
The "gay rights movement" has absolutely no place in the Church.[/quote]

Well, liberal Catholics are already in the Church, and most of them aren't leaving anytime soon.

In response to the Jesus driving out the money-changers, note that he also ate with prostitutes. I'd rather not pull out Scripture to back up our actions... that game can go on forever.

However, I never said anything about tolerating attempts to undermine Church teaching. Rather, I'm suggesting that there could be more effective ways of sharing the truth than with a poster and a loud mouth. Whether you show up or not, or if 10,000 protestors show up, the conference still goes on and more protestors only further invigorates them (while drawing more sympathy from outside the Church on their side). Shouldn't we try something else that doesn't play right into their hands?

The first step in changing someone's heart is changing their perceptions of us ("us" being conservative, faithful Catholics). We are viewed as critical, hateful, followers of rules lacking heart, unwelcoming, unwilling to listen to opinions that challenge our own, and undesiring of any fellowship with people who think differently from us.

We also have to understand that they believe they're doing the right thing. We aren't talking about murderers and gang members, most of whom are well aware of their sin. In order to address their concerns, we have to understand where they are coming from. It's easy to find ourselves talking past each other and making no progress because, for example, among laypeople there are many definitions for the word "Catholic."

As long as we keep them at a distance and just show up with picket signs, we will never make sense to them. But if we believe that God is Love and the Church and Her teachings are rooted in Love, why should we be afraid to embrace a friendship with anyone? That doesn't mean we welcome them into the Church, but first, we have to listen before we've earned the right to be heard. From there, we are in a better position to understand what's missing in their heart and show them how embracing the fullness of Truth and Love is the only way to fulfill their deepest, heartfelt desires.

All that takes patience, understanding, and a strong faith rooted in a faithful Catholic community. That, and most of the time it may not work, but if nothing else we can plant the seeds and allow God to keep working on their hearts.

[thessalonian]

[quote]sharing the truth than with a poster and a loud mouth.[/quote]I guess that would be me your referring to since I said I had a sign and was going to go down there. You don't know a beaver dam thing about me.

[quote]As long as we keep them at a distance and just show up with picket signs[/quote]

More flapping your jaw without knowing what you are talking about or what I did.

Edited March 21, 2007 by thessalonian

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1214013' date='Mar 15 2007, 09:03 AM']Sure. You know Fr. Corapi will be at St. Thomas on April 14? Get your tickes soon. It's filling up.[/quote]

I keep forgeting that..hehe, I have a friend at st thomas I am inviting, I wonder if he can get a student discount

[thessalonian]

Hate to tell you but I did hear it's sold out. 1500 seats. Check in to it though. I could be wrong.

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1216923' date='Mar 21 2007, 02:48 PM']Yelling at people while holding a poster stating some bumper sticker theology? Yeah, that's uncharitable.
Well, liberal Catholics are already in the Church, and most of them aren't leaving anytime soon.

In response to the Jesus driving out the money-changers, note that he also ate with prostitutes. I'd rather not pull out Scripture to back up our actions... that game can go on forever.

However, I never said anything about tolerating attempts to undermine Church teaching. Rather, I'm suggesting that there could be more effective ways of sharing the truth than with a poster and a loud mouth. Whether you show up or not, or if 10,000 protestors show up, the conference still goes on and more protestors only further invigorates them (while drawing more sympathy from outside the Church on their side). Shouldn't we try something else that doesn't play right into their hands?

The first step in changing someone's heart is changing their perceptions of us ("us" being conservative, faithful Catholics). We are viewed as critical, hateful, followers of rules lacking heart, unwelcoming, unwilling to listen to opinions that challenge our own, and undesiring of any fellowship with people who think differently from us.

We also have to understand that they believe they're doing the right thing. We aren't talking about murderers and gang members, most of whom are well aware of their sin. In order to address their concerns, we have to understand where they are coming from. It's easy to find ourselves talking past each other and making no progress because, for example, among laypeople there are many definitions for the word "Catholic."

As long as we keep them at a distance and just show up with picket signs, we will never make sense to them. But if we believe that God is Love and the Church and Her teachings are rooted in Love, why should we be afraid to embrace a friendship with anyone? That doesn't mean we welcome them into the Church, but first, we have to listen before we've earned the right to be heard. From there, we are in a better position to understand what's missing in their heart and show them how embracing the fullness of Truth and Love is the only way to fulfill their deepest, heartfelt desires.

All that takes patience, understanding, and a strong faith rooted in a faithful Catholic community. That, and most of the time it may not work, but if nothing else we can plant the seeds and allow God to keep working on their hearts.[/quote]
All I can say is if holding a poster protesting attempts to subvert Catholic morality is "uncharitable," what does that make turning over tables and physically driving people out with a whip??
And I'm sure the money-changers saw nothing wrong with their activity - just trying to make a little extra dough.
If Christ was so outraged at God's House being made into a marketplace, how much more must He be outraged at having it turned into a meeting place to promote sodomy and attempt to subvert God's moral teaching!

And what's "bumpersticker theology" anyway? Seems to be a slur used by "liberal Catholics" to refer to orthodox theology.

And let's not forget these words of our "meek and mild" Savior:
[quote][b]But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.[/b][/quote](Matthew 18:6)
How's that for "charity"?

False teaching within the Church that can lead others astray is an extremely serious matter, and is regarded as such by Christ and His Church.

Regarding those who obstinately persist in sin and error after being privately corrected, Christ says:
[quote]And if he will not hear them: tell the church. [b]And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.[/b][/quote](Matthew 18:17)

Regarding "dining with prostitutes," Christ did indeed call sinners, but He called them to repent and follow Him; He never did anything to encourage them to continue in their sin, much less promote sin as a legitimate "lifestyle" - "Go and sin no more."

There is a HUGE difference between welcoming sinners to repent, and using the Church to host moral dissent!

These "gay rights" activists in the Church are indeed attempting to undermine Church moral teaching - why else do you think they are lobbying?? They are aware that the Church teaches that homosexual activity is immoral, and they wish to change it. And if they truly are invincibly ignorant of their sin, then this shows a massive failure on the part of Church leadership, and this problem needs to be corrected immediately, not let slide in the name of false "charity" and "dialogue."

Edited March 23, 2007 by Socrates

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1216944' date='Mar 21 2007, 04:45 PM']Hate to tell you but I did hear it's sold out. 1500 seats. Check in to it though. I could be wrong.[/quote]


how do I do that?

If you know for certain let me know.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1217529' date='Mar 22 2007, 11:12 PM']And what's "bumpersticker theology" anyway? Seems to be a slur used by "liberal Catholics" to refer to orthodox theology.[/quote]

Bumpersticker theology are those little soundbites that people of any stance use "make their case," but the case is never actually made because you can't make a real point in a few words. For example, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." It makes sense to conservatives who already accept the point being made, but they've never had to read those words from a liberal's point of view who doesn't accept that point. If they did, they would know that liberals just get pissed off and, at that point, your case is lost.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1217529' date='Mar 22 2007, 11:12 PM']Regarding "dining with prostitutes," Christ did indeed call sinners, but He called them to repent and follow Him; He never did anything to encourage them to continue in their sin, much less promote sin as a legitimate "lifestyle" - "Go and sin no more."

There is a HUGE difference between welcoming sinners to repent, and using the Church to host moral dissent!

These "gay rights" activists in the Church are indeed attempting to undermine Church moral teaching - why else do you think they are lobbying?? They are aware that the Church teaches that homosexual activity is immoral, and they wish to change it. And if they truly are invincibly ignorant of their sin, then this shows a massive failure on the part of Church leadership, and this problem needs to be corrected immediately, not let slide in the name of false "charity" and "dialogue."[/quote]

Where did I say anything about promoting sinful lifestyles? What I'm suggesting is using gentler tactics to evangelize the truth in a way that might be more receptive to those who need it most. So far, all we've acheived is greater polarization. Maybe the fact that I have a lot of friends who are in the liberal camp contributes to why I look at things this way, but at the same time, I know from them how fruitless these protests are.

The one exception I hold is praying -- peacefully -- at abortion clinics because I have heard stories of how people who would've had abortions changed their minds and the power of prayer to work against the evil that's happening inside. But I haven't heard any similiar stories about protesting at conventions like this one. The only way I am open to changing my opinion about this kind of protesting is if you can show me that people are being converted through these efforts.

Edited March 23, 2007 by LouisvilleFan