Deutero-canonical Books

[jeffpugh]

I've been having a problem with arguing their authenticity to my protestant friend. He merely dismisses them and says his church bible does not have them. Oh yeah and apparently they're extra books. I told him Luther was the one who took them out... Anywho I find this will be a hard argument to start because I do not know how to argue the substantiality of this scripture by using scripture. Thats all some protestants will listen to... ''where does it say ___ in scripture??". Any help is appreciated. I put this on the Debate table because I want to hear from everyone on this. Thanks!

[N/A Gone]

You can add the fact that luther wanted to take out James, Hebrews, Jude and revelations as well.

Just ask him for his story, how the bible came about. How the canon was choosen. If he is open to conversation then sweet. If not, find another way. Typically, unless the protestant has formal training, they wont get too engaged in this topic.

[quote]The Seven Missing Books


Did you know that the Catholic Bible contains seven books generally not found in other Bibles? And do you wonder why?

The answer is not that something new has been added to the Bible by the Catholic Church; rather something old has been removed from non-Catholic versions of the Bible.

The books, conspicuous by their absence in modern non-Catholic Bibles, and which should be found in the Old Testament, are the books of Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Eccesiasticus, Baruch, and the two books of Machabees—and portions of the books of Esther and Daniel.

To understand this matter fully, it must be borne in mind that before the time of Christ, there were two divisions of Jews. Some remained in Palestine and continued to use the Scripture written in Hebrew. Others, scattered throughout foreign lands, particularly in Egypt, were better acquainted with Greek because Greek was then the common language.

For the use of the Greek-speaking Jews, who were numerous in Alexandria and other parts of Egypt, the Old Testament was translated into Greek several centuries before the coming of Christ. And it was these Greek-speaking Jews who, even before the time of Christ, regarded the seven books of which we speak as inspired.

The Jews in Palestine who spoke Hebrew did not rank these books among the inspired books of the Old Testament, either because they were not written in Hebrew, or because they came too late to be placed in the list of inspired books made by Esdras. After the Babylonian captivity, Esdras collected all the inspired books which could then be found. After his time, the books of Bar-uch, Tobias, Judith and Wisdom, as well as more complete copies of Daniel and Esther, were brought to light. The book of Ec-clesiasticus and the two books of Machabees were not yet written when the collection of inspired books was made.

The Apostles used the Scriptures of the Greek-speaking Jews, and it is upon the authority of the Apostles that the Old Testament, with the seven books under consideration, was held to be inspired. To these Apostles, Christ had said: "He who hears you, hears me." And the Apostles used these seven books. The Apostles must have known whether these books were inspired or not, whether they were the word of God or merely the word of man. If they had been only the word of man, the Apostles surely would have eliminated them from the Old Testament.
As they did not do so, but on the contrary, retained these books in the Old Testament... and as all the editions of the Bible used by their immediate disciples contained these books ... the Catholic Church must hold them to be inspired Scripture. This is not on the authority of the Jews from whom they were inherited, but on the authority of the Apostles.

From the day when the Catholic Church first published the official list of the inspired books of both the Old and the New Testaments, in 397 A.D., there never has been any interruption in the teaching of the Church concerning their inspired source.

These seven books are accepted as inspired Scripture by 300 millions of Catholics spread over the globe. They are called inspired Scripture by the Greek Church, though separated from the Catholic Church. They are held to be inspired Scripture by all the other Oriental Christian sects. At the beginning of the sixteenth century, all editions of the Christian Bible contained these books. Many of the oldest editions of the Protestant Bibles contained them, sometimes listed in the back of the Bible as Apocrypha — not to be considered inspired Scripture.

When the King James version of the Bible, which is still used by many English-speaking non-Catholics, first appeared, it contained these books. Later complaints, however, caused publishers to begin to omit them and by the year 1827, Bible Societies had eliminated them from the Bible altogether.

When a non-Catholic considers his Bible, it would be well for him to ask ... why were those seven books omitted? It is not justified by the authority of either the Jews or the early Christians.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

from The Bible is a Catholic Book, By The KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS Religious Information Bureau

Nihil obstat: William M Drumm, Censor Librorum.

Imprimatur: + Joseph E. Ritter, Archbishop of St. Louis
St. Louis, March 8, 1948.
Printed in 1948[/quote]

other links that might help

[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/deuteros.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham_contents.html"]http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deutero...m_contents.html[/url]

[url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/deutero.html"]http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/deutero.html[/url]

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.net/nt_and_duthtm.htm"]http://www.catholicapologetics.net/nt_and_duthtm.htm[/url]

[url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/cloud.html"]http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/cloud.html[/url]

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/francisdesales.html"]http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deutero...cisdesales.html[/url]

[jeffpugh]

I sorta guessed You would be the first to make a comment. Thanks there Rev.

[Starets]

Another good resource for you is Patrick Madrid's [u]Where is [i]That[/i] in the Bible?[/u]. ISBN 087973-693-3. It covers 43 topics in six categories. Since it does so in 175 pages, its best not to expect to great detail on any one of them. but it is a good place to start.

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[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1212213' date='Mar 11 2007, 05:29 PM']I sorta guessed You would be the first to make a comment. Thanks there Rev.[/quote]

May I ask why?

[jeffpugh]

Just a feeling. Nothing against you at all! I just noticed your active participation lately and I have to say that it is very much appreciated. Keep fighting the good fight.

[N/A Gone]

oh, thank you very much.

My soph year I had a biblical criticism class and my final was called "defending the deutro-canonical" and I got a B+ for it, although the teacher commented on it more than what I actually wrote. It was a good debate.

[RezaMikhaeil]

In the book of Wisdom alone, there's alot of references that could be applied to Jesus Christ but usually I ask the question of "why was Luther right is going to the Jews" particularly because the council of Jamnia [Jews] were the one's that proclaimed "the Jews" against the Deutero Canonical Books but they also rejected the whole new Testament.

Reza

[jeffpugh]

Yes Reza I actually read that somewhere. They condemned the books because Christians were converting Jews with them...

[KnightofChrist]

Start with Holy Scripture...


Again that great Catholic site...

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html"]Scripture[/url]

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

Sirach and 2 Maccabees – some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 – Paul says he “thinks” that he has the Spirit of God.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

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woah..

I love that site

[NewReformation]

Merely because a book of Scripture quotes an extra-biblical book, it does not mean that the extra-biblical book involved is inspired.

[N/A Gone]

you know that baptists are protestant..right? Ironically the essence of your signature is division. Where is the unity that CHrist asks for? Where is the objective truth?

oh, please give me more than just that for an argument for the deutero

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1212996' date='Mar 13 2007, 11:31 AM']you know that baptists are protestant..right? Ironically the essence of your signature is division. Where is the unity that CHrist asks for? Where is the objective truth?

oh, please give me more than just that for an argument for the deutero[/quote]

If you wish to argue about my signature and Baptists in general, start another thread and do slightly more than talk down to me, thank you.

I can think of two books mentioned in the Bible that are not part of any canon of Scripture. One in the Old Testament, one in the New. The one in the Old Testament is explicitly referenced to, while the one in the New merely quotes from a non-canonical book. Just because the Bible quotes them, it does not mean they are inspired.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1213006' date='Mar 13 2007, 12:37 PM']If you wish to argue about my signature and Baptists in general, start another thread and do slightly more than talk down to me, thank you.

I can think of two books mentioned in the Bible that are not part of any canon of Scripture. One in the Old Testament, one in the New. The one in the Old Testament is explicitly referenced to, while the one in the New merely quotes from a non-canonical book. Just because the Bible quotes them, it does not mean they are inspired.[/quote]
The Church is the one who guarentees the books are the inspired Word of God, since she is the one who made the final choices.
btw what Bible do you use?