Worship?

[N/A Gone]

I was asked by "Light and Truth" to post this topic

what is the difference in protestant and catholic worship?

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Essentially, the only MAJOR differance is that we, as Catholics, believe that Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist body, blood, soul, and divinity, As protestants believe it's only a symbol of Jesus through bread and wine. Calvary is relived in a non-bloody manner. This is why we as Catholics have Mass.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Proud2BCatholic139

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]John 4:23[/b]
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the [b]true adorers[/b] shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50004.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50004.htm[/url][/quote]Traditionally the Church has affirmed that true worship (fullness of worship) of the Triune Godhead exists in the Catholic Church, for it is only the Catholic Church that is the ground and pillar of the truth; the fullness of truth all truth therefore belonging to her. Moreover for it is in the Catholic Church that there is the indwelling Spirit, God the Holy Spirit, that we are to worship in.

This theology has been explained as the Church has the fullness of worship for we have been revealed the fullness of truth. So this theology is not to be misunderstood to mean that those outside of the Church cannot offer any worship to the true God but rather it suggests that it is only Catholic worship that is more pleasing to God and is more venerable. Even to the extent to saying it is really the only worship that is pleasing to God [b]for [u]we worship God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass which is the supreme act of adoration of the Godhead[/u][/b].

Non-Catholics and Non-Christians cannot offer this same worship since they lack one or both requirements, the fullness of truth and the sacrifice of the mass. But this theology has been severely downplayed in the aims of ecumenical prospects and because it sometimes harbors more misunderstand than understanding. If this is good or not, I am clueless.

[Maggyie]

I think CatholicCat is correct about the one of the main differences being the Sacrifice. The sacrificial impulse is common in all pre-Christian religions (pagans, etc) and is absolutely fundamental to Old Testament Judaism. It's interesting how it's sort of written into human DNA: we worship God with sacrifice.

The sacrifice for a Christian is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. Protestants would say that they have this sacrifice too; it was a one-time deal and now there is no need for sacrifice, since Christ has perfected man's relationship with God.

They are correct that it is a one-time event. However, what they overlook is that Christ's sacrifice is NEVER-ENDING; His blood continues to flow, sanctifying His people. The Catholic Mass is the ongoing re-presentation (not a repetition!) of this one, single, unique sacrifice, which brings worship to perfection, since it is a perfect sacrifice.

[Akalyte]

Difference: christians are to bend their knees to christ. Not carry on the jewish traditions of men (clapping, shouting, and dancing, singing).

[theculturewarrior]

I'm not sure that has anything to do with Judaism (it wasn't like that at the Synagogue I visited). I don't think there is a way to describe it, but it could be beautifully illustrated by attending a Latin High Mass.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1212012' date='Mar 11 2007, 10:34 AM']Difference: christians are to bend their knees to christ. Not carry on the jewish traditions of men (clapping, shouting, and dancing, singing).[/quote]

I don't see a problem in singing??

[jeffpugh]

The only problem with Maggie's explaination is the use of re-presentation. I tried to use that word on a protestant friend (who is very literate) and he said, 'yes representation'... and I kept emphasizing RE and Presentation. Any thoughts?

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1212092' date='Mar 11 2007, 02:44 PM']The only problem with Maggie's explaination is the use of re-presentation. I tried to use that word on a protestant friend (who is very literate) and he said, 'yes representation'... and I kept emphasizing RE and Presentation. Any thoughts?[/quote]

I know that problem too! That's why I specified "not repetition"... and "re-presentation" instead of "representation." But it doesn't work that well either. I kept looking at the Thesaurus but I couldn't find a word to match the "Catholic" meaning... I would like to hear what terms other people have used!

[Mr.Cat]

The sacrifice is singular and eternal, but is renewed upon our altars by the Priest acting in the Persona of Christ. I do not enjoy the phrase “re-presentation” because it suggests it is symbolic or not literal. When we go to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in a mystical manner we are literally taken to the Last Supper, the foot of the Cross, and to every other Mass ever said or to be said. More importantly we are brought to the foot of the Cross, the passion of our Blessed Lord, so in this we may become witness to it but not viewing the bloody and cruelty of the event.

If you want to explain the Sacrifice of the Mass (or the True Presence) simply listen to what is written in Saint Luke’s Gospel:[quote][b]Luke 22:18-20[/b]
"[u]For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come[/u]. And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: [b][color="#FF0000"]THIS IS MY BODY[/color][/b], [u]which is given for you[/u]. [b][u]Do this for a commemoration of me[/u][/b]. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: [b][color="#FF0000"]THIS IS THE CHALICE, THE NEW TESTMENT IN MY BLOOD[/color][/b], [u]which shall be shed for you[/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49022.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49022.htm[/url][/quote]Our Blessed Lord says that the bread is given for them; this suggests He is offering the bread for the remission of their sins or as a sacrifice to God. Protestants very adamantly propose that only our Blessed Lord (Himself) can offer worthy sacrifice and satisfaction for sin, if He is being symbolic in that the bread is not really Him then He has committed a sin. For only He can be offered for the remission of sins so in this passage of Scripture He is offering up a Sacrifice, which is also disconnected from the Cross. So they have to be the same Sacrifice in which the verse later on in Scripture becomes important where He asks the Father to let the cup pass.[quote][b]Luke 22:42[/b]
"Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49022.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49022.htm[/url][/quote]In Jewish tradition (I have read) the cup is the ending of the meal so the fact that our Blessed Lord He will not drink of the cup again till the Kingdom of God has come so the Sacrifice of the Last Supper has not ended. So the theology is very vividly present through the Scriptures, moreover Saint Paul speaks much about how the breaking of bread is a Sacrifice.[quote][b]Hebrews 9:23[/b]
"It is necessary therefore that the [b]patterns[/b] of heavenly things should be cleansed with these: but the heavenly things themselves with better [b]sacrifices[/b] than these."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65009.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65009.htm[/url][/quote]Note it in the plural, but if there is one Sacrifice then why does it write there are many and that the Old Testament is making reflection of those Heavenly things that have come to pass in and by our Blessed Lord. That by the “Sacrifices” (Plural) is better sacrifices than what were of the Old Covenant and cleanse us and those rituals of the past. Thus the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the fulfillment of the Old Law in Christ.[quote][b]Hebrews 13:15[/b]
"therefore let us offer the [b]sacrifice of praise[/b] [b][u]always[/u][/b] to God, that is to say, the fruit of lips confessing to his name."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65013.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/65013.htm[/url][/quote]Even though Saint Paul the Apostle says we are offering many Sacrifices in the reflection of those Heavenly things but that we are offering one Sacrifice of Praise (Worship) always. This reflects the Church’s theology concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[desertwoman]

The Eucharist is the focus in Catholic and Orthodox churches, the Word of God is the focus in Protestant churches. This causes worship to be different between the two. Everyone is focused on the Eucharist and then the homily. People in Protestant churches gather, have a fellowship with one another, and focus in on the Word.

Edited March 11, 2007 by desertwoman

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1212102' date='Mar 11 2007, 12:00 PM']The Eucharist is the focus in Catholic and Orthodox churches, the Word of God is the focus in Protestant churches. This causes worship to be different between the two. Everyone is focused on the Eucharist and then the homily. People in Protestant churches gather, have a fellowship with one another, and focus in on the Word.[/quote] I like this explaination, very posetive...

[N/A Gone]

desertwoman. There is more scripture read in catholic mass than in a protestant lecture. Often times the pastor does not actually read scripture, rather he is lecturing a point and will sprinkle various scripture in order to lend credibility to his point. It isnt that protestants focus on scripture and catholics on eucharist. It is just that scripture is all you have. But I would strongly challenge that the word of God is more strongly devoited and read in the Mass.


surprised nobody mentioned the "worship demands a sacrifice" yet

[jeffpugh]

I thought that was already mentioned? Maybe in a different thread... anywho Protestant ministers are very centralised on their favourite book sometimes. A lot give their interpretation of Apocalypse with little fruit but my point is we go through more scripture in a year than protestants.

[N/A Gone]

Scriptural Basis Of The Mass As Sacrifice
Scriptural Basis of the Mass as Sacrifice

ROME, SEPT. 26, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.

Q: Where are we commanded to have a sacrifice in our formal worship of God? Protestants, for the most part, worship with singing, some collective prayers and long sermons. Where in the Bible does it say that proper worship contains a sacrifice? Also a review of where in the Bible the Mass parts come from and why we include them in Mass would be useful. Again, it will come down to convincing a "sola scriptura" believer that Scripture says we must do it. Any help would be appreciated. -- J.C., Leavenworth, Kansas

A: A full answer to this question exceeds the possibilities of this column. There are, however, many worthy resources available online. Web sites such as Catholic Answers contain, among other elements, Father Mitch Pacwa's "Is the Mass a Sacrifice?"

The Old Testament contains many divine commands to perform sacrifices. All of the complex liturgical rituals described in Leviticus, for example, are ostensibly commanded by God through Moses.
Perhaps the most important sacrifices commanded by God in the Old Testament were those in which the Almighty sealed a covenant. This includes the one with Noah after the flood, the pact made with Abraham, and above all the sacrifice of the paschal lamb in Egypt, a covenant that was completed 50 days later with another sacrifice at Sinai.
It was this covenant that was renewed each year at the Passover by means of a sacrificial ritual that was a "memorial" ("zikkaron" in Hebrew). It was not a mere recalling but rather one that ritually made present and ratified and renewed the saving events that had occurred so many years before.
For Catholics, the central divine command to worship, using a sacrifice, came from the lips of Christ when he told the apostles at the Last Supper, "Do this as in memory of me."
In doing so, he specifically recalled the Jewish Passover as a memorial and applied it to himself and his upcoming sacrifice on the cross, with a totally new and definitive meaning.
In this context Our Lord's words "This is my body, which is given for you" (Luke 22:19) correspond to those of Exodus 12:27: "[This ritual] is the sacrifice of the Passover in honor of Yahweh" when he freed Israel from slavery in Egypt.
The words "For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:28) echo those of Exodus 24:8 when Moses says: "This … is the blood of the covenant that Yahweh has made with you."
We are thus before a unique sacrifice, the memorial sacrament of Christ's paschal sacrifice. Through it he has brought salvation to all mankind and sealed a new and eternal covenant in his blood.
Although the apostles probably did not immediately grasp the full meaning of Christ's gesture in the cenacle, their reflection on his words and actions and their familiarity with the Passover as a memorial quickly led them to understand that Our Lord had commanded them to repeat the ritual that he had established.
They understood that this ritual was the definitive paschal sacrifice which made present Christ's unique sacrifice on Calvary and in doing so ratified and renewed the new and eternal covenant.
Therefore, God has commanded us to worship with a sacrifice, his own unique sacrifice.
All other forms of ritual sacrifice have fallen by the wayside as Christ's sacrifice has an infinite worth that absorbs all the values and intentions expressed in the ancient sacrifices.
The Mass is a sacrifice insofar as it is the memorial that ritually renews and makes present to us, in time, Christ's once-and-for-all sacrifice on the cross.
The personal prayers and sacrifices of Christians reach their fulfillment when they are united to Christ's sacrifice through full, devout and active participation at Mass.
As to where in the Bible the various parts of the Mass are found, the answer is less clear. In a way it is everywhere and nowhere.
Everywhere, because the entire Mass is animated by Scripture. Almost all of the prayers and texts have a scriptural background and the entire rite is developed as a fruit of Christ's command to continue his actions.
Nowhere, in the sense that we will not find explicit commands to say, "Sing the Sanctus after the preface." Rather, the ritual has developed over time as a response to the scriptural exhortation to pray, to repeat the sacrifice, etc.

In this case even a Protestant would have to accept that the details of his worship (songs, psalms and long sermons, etc.) are found in the Bible only in very general terms.


An interesting reference...
[url="http://www.catholicfiles.com/soom.html"]http://www.catholicfiles.com/soom.html[/url]

Also, the word in Our Lord's words of institution "anamnesin" in the Greek means only one thing: to make truly present (the Sacrifice of Calvary) again. The Latin commeratio has exactly the same meaning.

Also, in the Old Testament, the commands for the purity of the paschal types of the Sacrifice made once for all time -- (and this perpetual Sacrifice made pesent again as noted above) empasize the Holiness of this All Holy Sacrifice with a worshipful total reverence, even in the Old Testement types, that cannot be equated with simply singing a song or such.

Also, this Sacrifice which was made by Christ to ransom us from pagan bondage to the devil isn't at all on the level of sermons where the Protestant minister is the center of attention. Which brings to mind, I think, a related subject: if even where a baptised Christian (a Protestant in this case) is normally not invited to partake of the Catholic Eucharist, shouldn't we all be careful about interreligious assumptions and statements that would defame the Holiness of Our High Priest's (Jesus Christ) singular Sacrifice?