Orthodox Belief

[Mr.Cat]

I will be the grown up since you seem not want to take this like an adult. I will leave you alone and I shown this to several other users and they don’t understand your problem. I haven’t done anything against you and you have made quite a few claims that I think other Catholics would find offending. You have never once quoted a single source and if you had I would of continued in the topic of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, where this all started.

I am someone who I really don’t care about words across the Internet (because it’s the Internet) but when someone like you becomes so obsessed with being offended then I am unsure what to do. So I will just drop the topic.

But at any rate the previous poster was correct, if I did use it I never used it to be offensive but to make a point and to state a fact that you are not in full communion with the Catholic Church rejecting the authority of the Pope (which is classified as a schismatic act). Although, you take it to be offence even though you make this statement:

[quote][b]RezaLemmyng Post #59[/b]
"This is a very uneducated claim, the true church that adhere to the Orthodox [right and proper teachings] have never planned or even hinted at the idea of [u]adhering to the Roman [b]schismatic doctrines[/b][/u]. Pope John Paul II even asked Pope Shenouda III to join the Roman Church and his response was, "We love you" but without allowing negative words to be said, wouldn't accept his offer but rather pray that the Roman Church would return to the original [orthodox] teachings."
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=65379&view=findpost&p=1210967"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1210967[/url][/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

Play nice people. If both sides offended then both sides need to apologize.
Please if you are answering a question either quote or use someones screen name so we know who is responding to what.

[Mr.Cat]

No offence taken by me, I simply don’t understand how someone could be offended by something (seemingly days later) to fit into an argument launched against me. If they were offended by it from the start they could have simply asked me to use a different term (which I would have happily done if it helps discussion). But then they use the same term they find so offending against Catholics and then attempt to play the victim game.

I apologize if there is offence taken but I don’t know how I can apologize for the act itself, when I didn’t even know it was offending till later and moreover they used the term themselves. But like I said I am through with this to help the message board move on, regardless if my feelings are hurt.

[RezaMikhaeil]

You don't know anything about Orthodox Doctrines and haven't given a single Orthodox the ability to teach you about them, for you to go and deliberately insult and blasphemy orthodox doctrines as such.

It's best if you don't comment about Orthodox doctrines until you get a little bit more mature to read them and attempt to understand them. As I'd written previously, Pope John Paul did that and was very kind towards Orthodox in ways that you appear not to be.

However if you'd like, I'll kindly leave Phatmass and leave it to be a solely Roman Catholic Forum if you'd like [which is what you said in a previous post, that it's Roman Catholic so others should go somewhere else]?

Reza

Edited March 13, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1213153' date='Mar 13 2007, 04:10 PM']You don't know anything about Orthodox Doctrines and haven't given a single Orthodox the ability to teach you about them, for you to go and deliberately insult and blasphemy orthodox doctrines as such.

It's best if you don't comment about Orthodox doctrines until you get a little bit more mature to read them and attempt to understand them. As I'd written previously, Pope John Paul did that and was very kind towards Orthodox in ways that you appear not to be.

However if you'd like, I'll kindly leave Phatmass and leave it to be a solely Roman Catholic Forum if you'd like [which is what you said in a previous post, that it's Roman Catholic so others should go somewhere else]?

Reza[/quote]

This is a catholic board were others [b]are welcomed.[/b] I am sure Cat will and does agree with that.

Reza it is not good to let strong emotions lead you... I mean absolutely no offense but you are too easily offended when no offense was intended. Cat has apologized and stated in was not his intent to offend you. Why not just let it go... and we all move on

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1213362' date='Mar 13 2007, 11:22 PM']This is a catholic board were others [b]are welcomed.[/b] I am sure Cat will and does agree with that.

Reza it is not good to let strong emotions lead you... I mean absolutely no offense but you are too easily offended when no offense was intended. Cat has apologized and stated in was not his intent to offend you. Why not just let it go... and we all move on[/quote]

1.) I don't let emotions "run me", for anyone that knows me knows that.

2.) Cat didn't appologize, she said "I'm sorry but" and continued in insulting Orthodoxy.

Reza

[theculturewarrior]

One of the reasons Orthodox and Catholics get in arguments like this (and have done so from the beginning) is that for the most part we speak different languages that say essentially the same thing. I think somewhere there is a policy in our Church against proselytizing Orthodox. Also, it should be noted that Reza is Oriental Orthodox, and may have different beliefs than Eastern Orthodox.

Sometimes I think it is better for priests and bishops to have interfaith dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics. The laity should just be having barbacues.

[KnightofChrist]

It would seem some Eastren Orthodox do belief Mary was sinless when the question is asked "correctly"...

SOURCE
[quote]On the point of the purity of the Theotokos in the sense of her sinlessness all Orthodox are agreed that she is consecrated and holy in that God Himself has dwelt in her womb. She is called the Theotokos (bearer or birth-giver of God) and therefore the Panagia ("all-holy one" This follows from the biblical principle that wherever God dwells is holy. The Tabernacle and the later Temple, as well as the Ark of the Covenant, are all examples of this principle. These are all "set apart" from common use in the biblical Tradition by the fact that God graciously dwelt in them. In Scriptural logic whatever God touches or indwells is "set apart" from common use, which is the meaning of the word "holy." To be holy is to be set apart from common use for the indwelling of God Himself. In this sense the Virgin Mary was set apart, "holy," because God Himself dwelt within her womb. This is precisely why the Holy Church insisted on the title of "Theotokos," or "the one who bore God Himself in her womb" against the heretical denial of this title to Mary on the part of the Patriarch Nestorius. Nestorius taught that the person in Mary's womb was not God Himself but rather simply a being who was somehow united to God. Thus for the Nestorians Mary could be called "anthropotokos," or "bearer of a man," or even "christotokos," the "bearer of the Messiah," but not "Theotokos," the "bearer of God." Against Nestorius the Holy Church at the Third Ecumenical Council (AD 431) responded that if God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, did not take our flesh in the womb of the Theotokos then we are still in our sins and cannot be brought into saving union with God through her Son. It follows naturally by biblical logic that the one in whom God Himself dwelt is "holy." [b]If this is what one means by asking whether Orthodox Christians believe in the sinlessness of Mary then we would answer, "Yes!"[/b][/quote]

[RezaMikhaeil]

Again, you're going to have to give me the link to where you found this on the internet so that it can be properly answered. For all I know you just wrote it yourself but in regards to Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, we agree on this issue that she isn't sinless [as our recient dialog between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and even Roman Catholicism have concluded]. If you dont believe this, just go individually to any Eastern Orthodox priest and ask him/her personally.

[quote]Since the Middle Ages, Catholic theologians had argued the question of whether or not Mary had been subject to original sin. In general, the Franciscans argued in favor of her "immaculate conception", the doctrine that she, from the moment of her conception, had been preserved by God from all sin and all tendency to sin; the Dominicans, on the other hand, including most notably Thomas Aquinas, argued that Mary's sinlessness is a grace granted to her at some time after her conception. In 1854, Pope Pius IX effectively ended the debate for Catholics by proclaiming the dogma of the "Immaculate Conception", stating that "the Blessed Virgin Mary in the first instant of her conception was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." ("Ineffabilis Deus", issued on 8 December 1854). It was subsequently claimed that the Blessed Virgin Mary during her sixteenth appearance in Lourdes on March 25, 1858 announced to Bernadette Soubirous "I am the Immaculate Conception". The term Immaculate Conception is also widely used within Catholicism to refer to the Virgin Mary.[/quote][quote]Orthodox Christians do believe that Mary was without sin for her entire life, but they do not share the Catholic Church's views on original sin. They note that St. Augustine (d. 430), whose works were not well known in Eastern Christianity until after the 17th century, has exerted considerable influence over the theology of sin that has generally taken root through the Holy See, and since Eastern Orthodoxy does not share Rome's (or most Protestants') view of original sin, it considers unnecessary the doctrine that Mary would require purification prior to the Incarnation. Instead, Eastern Orthodox theologians suggest that the references among the Greek and Syrian Fathers to Mary's purity and sinlessness may refer not to an a priori state, but to her conduct after birth. Although this is not a dogma in the Orthodox Church, there is the universal belief that there was a pre-sanctification of Mary at the time of her conception, similar to the conception of Saint John the Baptist. However, there was no cleansing of original sin, since Orthodox Christians believe that one cannot inherit original sin, or any sin for that matter; instead, 'original sin' in Orthodoxy refers to the general tendency towards sin and pain in the world, caused by the fall of Adam.[/quote]

These were both taken from Wikipedia, since I dont have the time to do the searches right now at "Official Orthodox" sites.

Reza

Edited March 15, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1214168' date='Mar 15 2007, 04:43 PM']Again, you're going to have to give me the link to where you found this on the internet so that it can be properly answered. For all I know you just wrote it yourself but in regards to Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, we agree on this issue that she isn't sinless [as our recient dialog between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and even Roman Catholicism have concluded]. If you dont believe this, just go individually to any Eastern Orthodox priest and ask him/her personally.

Reza[/quote]
No. the Catholic Church has not concluded Mary sinned. Simply not true.

[N/A Gone]

I confirm for Reza.

But Reza, I asked you before. Doesnt the Orthodox agree that Rome has the primacy, the issue is in what manner and form that primacy is to be demonstrated? Also the extent to which ROme can act without full consent of the bishops and in what situaton?

Also, could the argument be made that Greek Marian theology is underdeveloped since nothing for certain can be determined without the full council? In reading ecumenical theology the position on the marian issues seems to be more of a developmental issue rather than a difference in theology.

Thank you Reza.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]No. the Catholic Church has not concluded Mary sinned. Simply not true.[/quote]I never said that the Roman Catholic Church did, what I did say is that during the unity talks among churches, the Roman Patriarch acknowledged that the Orthodox Position is that Orthodox don't support the Immaculate Conception like Romans.

[quote]But Reza, I asked you before. Doesnt the Orthodox agree that Rome has the primacy, the issue is in what manner and form that primacy is to be demonstrated? Also the extent to which ROme can act without full consent of the bishops and in what situaton?[/quote] The Orthodox position is that Rome isn't primacy, that St. Peter was the "head dude" but that didn't make him infallible either [as St. Paul actually corrected St. Peter, when St. Peter was wrong]. We also hold that we should keep the traditions formost. If St. Peter preached something that was contradictory to the original traditions, then St. Mark [for example] wasn't held to his authority to follow him. This is just a nutshell, really this is one that could [and probably should] be discussed more indepth to get the full concept of the Roman and Orthodox position.

Reza

PS: I edited my last post, so please check that out, I added some quotes that may help in explaining the Orthodox position.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1214188' date='Mar 15 2007, 04:54 PM']We also hold that we should keep the traditions formost. If St. Peter preached something that was contradictory to the original traditions, then St. Mark [for example] wasn't held to his authority to follow him. This is just a nutshell, really this is one that could [and probably should] be discussed more indepth to get the full concept of the Roman and Orthodox position.[/quote]


St Peter was made head of the Church, and his authority was final. Agreeing to disagree and everyone doing their own thing is exactly why the Anglican Communion/Church of England is falling apart. In the end, someone has to be the boss with final authority AND responsibility.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1214168' date='Mar 15 2007, 02:43 PM']Again, you're going to have to give me the link to where you found this on the internet so that it can be properly answered. For all I know you just wrote it yourself but in regards to Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, we agree on this issue that she isn't sinless [as our recient dialog between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and even Roman Catholicism have concluded]. If you dont believe this, just go individually to any Eastern Orthodox priest and ask him/her personally.
These were both taken from Wikipedia, since I dont have the time to do the searches right now at "Official Orthodox" sites.

Reza[/quote]

[url="http://htaoc.com/pastor/ask/sinless.html"]http://htaoc.com/pastor/ask/sinless.html[/url]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote] [u][b][url="http://www.st-ilija.org/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=2"]DEVOTION TO MARY THE MOTHER OF GOD[/url][/b][/u]

There is an ancient legend that runs thus: St. Andrew, the Apostle hurried to heaven, released by his crucifixion from earthly toil and anguish. Admitted to the gates of heaven, St. Andrew began searching for his beautiful heavenly Queen. “Where is she?” he asked his guide. “She is not here”, replied the angel. “She is in the suffering word, drying the tears of her weeping children”. Drying their tears, healing their hurts, folding the hands of her suffering children, loving them, teaching them, reminding them, praying with them – these are the ways in which the Mother of God cooperates with the will of her Son.

[b] The Virgin Mary was born about two thousand years ago, of pious Jewish parents Joachim and Ana. She belonged to the house of David, like Joseph. By the grace of God, [u]Mary was sinless from the moment of her conception, and remained so her whole life.[/u] Because she was the Mother of Jesus Christ, Person Who is both God and man, Mary is called, and is in fact, the Mother of God – Bogorodica. She is also Mother of the human family, always ready to intercede for us with God and help us, just as she did at the wedding in Cana, Galilee.
[/b]
Mary occupies a very important place in the devotional life of a Christians. Perhaps the most typical aspect of the devotion to the Mother of God, is the child-like love for and trust in her constant protection and intercession. She is glorified in heaven through her Dormition/Assumption – Uspenie (feast day August 28), yet the individual finds her presence close throughout each day and often echoes the angel Gabriel’s words from the Gospel: “Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women”, and the words of the Christian Community “and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners”.

In Tradition the two most important sources for this tender devotion toward Mary are their sacred icons and liturgical text. Thus, for example, for the Feast of Mary’s Nativity (September 21), the Tropar proclaims: “Your birth o Virgin Mother of God heralded joy to the universe; for from you rose the Sun of Justice, Christ our God. By annulling the curse, He bestowed a blessing, By destroying death, He has granted us eternal life”. Similar sentiments are expressed on other Marian feasts.

Among the most striking hymns ever composed in honor of Mary, is one that sung as a part of the Divine Liturgy: “It is truly fitting and proper to sing your praises, Mother of God, ever blessed and completely sinless Mother who has born our God. Higher in honor than the Cherubim! And beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim! Who, a Virgin, gave birth to the Word of Gad; you are truly the mother of God and we praise you!.”

Sacred icons seek to turn our thoughts toward heaven. An icons appeals to the soul, not the eye. Thus it is not beautiful in the conventional terms of natural realism; it is designed to depict a spiritual expression of serene sublimity and to bring out the soul not the body of the figure. The purpose of art is not to represent the perfection of the body but to reproduce the spiritual essence and to be our window on heaven. Examples of notable Marian icons: Our Lady of Vladimir, Our Lady of Precista etc.

Devotion to Mary is also reflected in the thousands of churches and monasteries around the word, dedicated to her, such as in Matka, Berovo, Kicevo, Columbus, Detroit, Los Angeles.

The reason for all of these devotions to Mary, is to enable us to say with her: “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word,” and thereby fulfill the purpose of our existence – eternal life with God.[/quote]