Things I Disagree With Peter Kreeft On

[Budge]

Peter Kreeft dismisses Gods Word and diminishes its authority and perfection.

from the essay...

[b]Fundamentalists and Catholics Whose Bible is it, anyway? [/b]

[quote]However, we don't even have the original autographs of any of the books of the Bible, so we're not absolutely sure what the exact words were. There were some minor errors in copying, for the earliest texts we have don't totally agree with each other-though there's 99 percent verbal agreement among different manuscripts, far more than for any other ancient writings.[/quote]Doesnt Peter Kreeft believe that God would preserve His Word? There are programs for reading the Greek and Hebrew, I own one even.


The Catholic idea that scripture is full of errors, to be frank is abhorrent to me, and is I believe one of the things that has led to many errors within Catholicism and false Protestantism that has the Catholic view of scripture.

[quote]
Catholics agree that Scripture is infallible, or free from error, but not necessarily grammatical, mathematical, or scientific error, only error in its mess[/u][/quote]

This definitely illustrates a GIANT difference between my Christian beliefs and Roman catholicism

[quote]But fundamentalists insist that all dogmas must be present explicitly in Scripture, while Catholics see Scripture as a seed or young plant: The fullness of Catholic dogma is the flowering of the original revelation.[/quote]

Openly and willfully denying the sufficiency of Gods Word.

I wouldnt want to be him on Judgement Day!

[Budge]

His book Ecumenical Jihad should be an embarrasment to Catholics everywhere but sadly they have now accepted this false message to unite with false religions.


Peter Kreeft is the poster boy of the most deluded Catholic Pope-worshipping, one world religion-loving, Christ-and Bible Denying apologists.

He supports the one world religion in that book.

Just one more shill for the False Prophet.

[quote]
Quote:[b]Peter Kreeft, author of Ecumenical Jihad is excited about the possibility of the world’s religions being united as one. As a philosophy professor, a convert to Catholicism and one of its chief apologists, Kreeft’s objective is to morally transform society by encouraging a coalition of world religions. Kreeft believes “God is raising up an army, forging an new alliance of all who hate evil.”[1] In his book he states:

This new alliance may prove to be more unifying that anything else in the history of religions. Perhaps all the world’s religions will eventually be united in this cause; but so far, in the West, we can see this army being made up of five religious groups - orthodox Catholics, Evangelical and Fundamental Protestants, Muslims, religious Jews, and eastern Orthodox. [2]
[/b]
The diversity of the coalition Kreeft is advocating is much greater than just Protestants, Catholics, Jews and Muslims coming together. In his book Ecumenical Jihad, Kreeft praised the pope for organizing a special prayer vigil in Assisi, Italy October of 1986 when he brought together Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, spiritists, snake worshipers, animists, and native witchdoctors. Commenting positively on this gathering Kreeft stated:

Representatives of all the major religious of the world met and prayed together for peace at Assisi… such a thing had never happened before in the history of the world.[3]

As well, Peter Kreeft believes he has discovered why the Muslims have become so successful in the expansion of their faith over the past several years. Asking why Islam is expanding so spectacularly, Kreeft answered his own question by saying: “To any Christian familiar with the Bible, the answer is obvious: because God keeps his promises and blesses those who obey His laws and fear Him.”[4]

Peter Kreeft also has much to say about the reunification of Catholics with Protestants. In another book he authored called Fundamentals of the Faith: Essays in Christian Apologetics, Kreeft claimed that the time has come for Protestants to repent and come back to the Catholic Church. He wrote:

And what do Protestants have to repent of? Doctrinally, whatever they left behind in the Reformation that was not a perversion .. I believe this includes the teaching authority of the Church, the inerrancy of her creeds, sacramentalism, apostolic succession, prayers to saints, Purgatory, transubstantiation, and even a definite papal primacy.[5]

It appears that Kreeft would like to see all faiths come under the authority of Rome – including Protestants. Will this happen? I don’t think it is a matter of whether it will happen – the only question is how soon?

I am Roger Oakland. This has been a biblical perspective to help understand the times.[/quote]

[url="http://www.understandthetimes.org/current_transcripts/text/nov2003/1328.shtml"]LINK[/url]

[Anomaly]

Budge,
So in reality, you are just jealous of Kreeft? Even from your out of context excerpts, it is evident that Kreeft wants all the relgions to unify and be subject to his favorite form of Christianty, the Roman Catholics.

You are no different, you want want unification and subject everyone to Budge's favorite form of Christianity.

All your posts are centered on you arrogant belief that your interpretation, your intellect, is infallible.

We've shown you repeatedly how many of your opinions are both unbiblical and illogical, yet you harp on. You are determined, but wrong. You are no different than the other multitudes of self-righteous self appointed religious shills claiming YOU are right, and everyone else is wrong.

You only convert the weak minded to your personal 'religion'

[Budge]

How do you NOT have a personal religion.

{Ill go on the rare chance you are NOT a sockpuppet utilized to sway board discussions]

You reject fundamentalist Christianity and its Biblical doctrines.

You argue with the Catholics over theirs

And supposely Im the one with my OWN religion?

Yours doesnt even make any sense and you wont even say what it is--maybe you do need to be ashamed to keep it in the dark.

[N/A Gone]

Read Ecumenical Jihad in context, he is not saying for everyone to forgot what they believe, or to have a false unity, he is speaking about working together against a common enemy. That is modernism and the secular world. Seriously, maybe if I have never read the book, or anything else of his I could have been convinced of your argument, but why would you try that knowing I have read his stuff?



[color="#FF0000"]Peter Kreeft dismisses Gods Word and diminishes its authority and perfection.[/color]

No...


[quote]Doesnt Peter Kreeft believe that God would preserve His Word? There are programs for reading the Greek and Hebrew, I own one even.[/quote]Do you think those were conserved the whole time? I was taught in Biblical criticism, by Dr. Joe Sprinkle a very similar thing when it comes to the original manuscripts and the errors involved. This argument alone should make a serious dent in sola scripture types (where is the picture of that bird with his head in the sand?) This is not just a catholic view by any means. The majority of academic evangelicals affirm it also.


[quote]The Catholic idea that scripture is full of errors, to be frank is abhorrent to me, and is I believe one of the things that has led to many errors within Catholicism and false Protestantism that has the Catholic view of scripture.[/quote]Its a simple fact Budge. The bible you have now was not always the way it was at the local christian book store. This is just solid reason for the need of an interpreting body. I would be more scared if I was trying to interpret myself rather than trust what Christ put in place. Remember, Christ left a church, that church produced the bible. Not the other way around.


[color="#FF0000"]This definitely illustrates a GIANT difference between my Christian beliefs and Roman catholicism
Openly and willfully denying the sufficiency of Gods Word.[/color]

I would argue that less that .05% of the christians in the tradition of our faith shared the same beliefs universally as you. Nobody before 1500. If you want we can talk about sufficiency of God's word, i think that is the one thing that can be fruitful coming out of this. Go ahead and define what you see as sufficiency of God's word. Cite your arguments please.

[quote]I wouldnt want to be him on Judgement Day![/quote]

Matt 7:1


(sorry i used both color and quotes)

Edited March 8, 2007 by Revprodeji

[Nathan]

The impression I got from [i]Ecumenical Jihad[/i] was not that Kreeft desires a "one world religion," but rather that serious Christians, Muslims, and Jews in the West temporarily put their differences aside in order to kick anti-religious butt more effectively. He has a point; in a civilization where most people seem to want to kill religion, genuinely religious people are more like comrades than enemies. Continuing to bicker and fight amongst ourselves just makes it easier for our common enemy, who would like to see all of us annihilated.

This isn't a religious/theological comprimse, but a political one. It means working together in the pro-life movement, defending traditional family values, defending religious freedoms, etc. No one religious group can do this alone, but together, we have a good chance at achieving some real social justice. Together, we can really put the scare into liberals.

[jeffpugh]

I agree with Nathan, Anomaly and Rev. Kreeft is not trying to mash religions together for a new world order. He is a level headed professor who loves Christ. Now, lets get on with this dialogue on "sufficiency of God's word".

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Budge' post='1210295' date='Mar 8 2007, 07:22 AM']Peter Kreeft dismisses Gods Word and diminishes its authority and perfection.

from the essay...

[b]Fundamentalists and Catholics Whose Bible is it, anyway? [/b]

Doesnt Peter Kreeft believe that God would preserve His Word? There are programs for reading the Greek and Hebrew, I own one even.
The Catholic idea that scripture is full of errors, to be frank is abhorrent to me, and is I believe one of the things that has led to many errors within Catholicism and false Protestantism that has the Catholic view of scripture.
This definitely illustrates a GIANT difference between my Christian beliefs and Roman catholicism
Openly and willfully denying the sufficiency of Gods Word.

I wouldnt want to be him on Judgement Day![/quote]
I'm definitely backing Budge up here.

Any religion or person who takes away or adds to God's word will be taken from the Book of Life of the Christ, and will have all the plagues of Revelation added to them.

[quote name='Revelation 22:17-19' date=' KJV']And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.[/quote]

When you add things like Evolution, Thiestic or otherwise, and many other things, what you get is adding to God's word. And when you take away essential doctrines, like 6-day creationism, you are taking away from the word. Just a friendly warning, and a friendly invatation - come, be safe within the doctrines of the Bible.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1211109' date='Mar 9 2007, 11:23 PM']Any religion or person who takes away or adds to God's word will be taken from the Book of Life of the Christ, and will have all the plagues of Revelation added to them.[/quote]That would include the Reformers who took away books from the Old Testament?

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1211109' date='Mar 9 2007, 11:23 PM']When you add things like Evolution, Thiestic or otherwise, and many other things, what you get is adding to God's word.[/quote]I wouldn't consider this as applying to adding to God's word, unless someone was proposing to make Darwin's "Origin of Species" a book in the Holy Bible. Don't see that happening any time soon.

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1211109' date='Mar 9 2007, 11:23 PM']And when you take away essential doctrines, like 6-day creationism, you are taking away from the word. Just a friendly warning, and a friendly invatation - come, be safe within the doctrines of the Bible.[/quote]Six-day creation is an essential doctrine? According to whom? Don't get me wrong, there are Truths in the book of Genesis that are essential to the Christian Faith (e.g. all humanity descended from common ancestors--who we call Adam and Eve; and the sin of these first parents). But six day Creationism doesn't affect Christian theology in any noticeable way. I don't even think the "six day creation" issue was even mentioned in the New Testament.

Just an aside: it's not as if six-day Creation was an firmly-held view in the days of Our Lord. The early Christians were surrounded by Greek thought, which differed on the origin of the Earth. In my own reading, I've found that as early as St. Augustine (lived in the 4th/5th centuries), theologians were able to see the six days as symbolic. As I read his comments on the subject, I certainly didn't get the impression that he was being a theological maverick, with a firmly established "literal six-day" opposition.

If we're going to talk about essential doctrines, maybe something like Our Lord being present in the Eucharist has much more traction, given the frequent mentions this doctrine gets in the New Testament.

[N/A Gone]

[quote]Any religion or person who takes away or adds to God's word will be taken from the Book of Life of the Christ, and will have all the plagues of Revelation added to them.[/quote]In understanding the point/purpose of Kreeft's ecumenical Ideas you must understand that he is not even speaking in terms of theology. Rather he is saying that confessional communities, regardless of creed, could do alot of good for the world and for themselves by working together against a common enemy. I have first hand seen the benefit of various christian communities working together towards common goals in the general public. That is what Kreeft is speaking of. Ecumensim is NOT watering down the faith. I am very strong on this stance friend. If you want to discuss this more just ask

[quote]When you add things like Evolution, Thiestic or otherwise, and many other things, what you get is adding to God's word. And when you take away essential doctrines, like 6-day creationism, you are taking away from the word. Just a friendly warning, and a friendly invatation - come, be safe within the doctrines of the Bible.[/quote]

You must understand sir, a couple things about catholic theology.

Deposit, Dogma, Doctrine, practice, devotion (look it up in older posts of mine)

Your understanding of evolution falls under doctrine, actually it would be considered speculative doctrine. It is a way people see could see it, it is nonheretical, but it is not dogmatic by any means. Where you get in trouble is assuming a truth that has not been revealed as such. Be careful, it is a nice understanding, but not something that has the authoritive background to be considered damning. We have butt heads numerous times on this and I dont see the need to repeat

[Budge]

[quote] he is speaking about [false religions paired with *Christianity*]working together against a common enemy.[/quote]

[b]2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?[/b]

[jeffpugh]

Budge, what is that supposed to mean?

[Budge]

True Christians have nothing in common {CONCORD} with those in the bondage of false religions. they should be spending their time converting them to Christ rather then doing 'save the planet and or *culture*" projects.

[jeffpugh]

I do not think that is placed out of sight out of mind, Budge, but right now if you have not noticed we are facing a vast spread of the secularist blight throughout the world. It is not a belief ordeal but a diplomatic. We are communicating insofar as to stand against governments and such that are taking away our right to CHOSE what we believe. If we do not stand for this right then all will be persecuted and then who will have the choice to join Christ when it comes to the point where we preach the gospel? Yes there are people who take it the wrong way but that is the primary objective. Saving the planet and cultures (not necessarily 'religions') follows accepting Christ.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Budge' post='1213298' date='Mar 13 2007, 10:01 PM']True Christians have nothing in common {CONCORD} with those in the bondage of false religions. they should be spending their time converting them to Christ rather then doing 'save the planet and or *culture*" projects.[/quote]


also, to say that we have nothing in common with those in false religions is idiotic. First, we both believe in God. Wow, thats something in common. second, many religions believe in many of the same characteristics of God. Hm, another shared belief! Islam itself means surrender.....do you believe we should surrender ourselves to teh will of God, or is your Will law? Because if you believe in truth....that means another commonality (if thats a word . anyway think before you post things, and maybe try to read scripture to find out what it intended to say, not what you want it to say.