Catholic Flowchart Vs. Christian Flowchart

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1210793' date='Mar 9 2007, 12:02 AM']I have listened to your complaints and I do not feel they are founded. Moreover, there is no evidence that you have listed as my post requested that children are not able to obtain Baptism of Desire in one of its forms.[/quote]

Infants can recieve Baptism of Blood, though, now that I think about it the Holy Innocents could not have recieved BOB since the Sacrament of Baptism wasn't instituted until later.

Children cannot recieve Baptism of Desire since they cannot desire something until they have reached the age of reason.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1210667' date='Mar 8 2007, 11:08 PM']Most of the flow chart for the Catholic thoughts on salvation requires works.[/quote]In reality, all of it relies on the grace of God. Even in the "simple" Budgianity chart, one could read it and say that salvation depended on the believer, whose "work" is to say yes or no. Properly understood, Christians rightly ascribe every work, including their "yes" to the grace of God. You might like to read the section of the Catholic Catechism on Grace and Justification:

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm[/url]

It may seem almost repetitive to read how often it is emphasized that grace is a free gift from Our Creator. Just as the Budgianity chart requires a single "yes" response, we Catholics realize that we have a lifetime to fall in love with Our Creator and respond "yes" to Him each day.

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1210667' date='Mar 8 2007, 11:08 PM']Do this, do that, and you get into heaven.[/quote]Our Lord Himself made the connection that, "If you love Me, you will keep My Commandments." (John 14:15) He didn't ask for lip-service. He let us know that everything we have and everything we are was a gift from Our Creator, and we are called to offer our lives back to Him.

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1210667' date='Mar 8 2007, 11:08 PM']Second, the purgatory. Heaven is timeless, so when you die, there is no time. You don't need any time to be purified once you die. You either enter heaven, or hell.[/quote]You are correct in a sense: purgatory is not outside of time; and a soul's final destination is either heaven or hell. The issue is: we know that nothing impure can enter heaven ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation21.htm#v27"]Rev 21:27[/url]), yet what person would boast that they are 100% pure (i.e. no concupiscence, worldly attachments, etc)?

So, between dying and heaven, a purification must happen. Whether this purification takes a fraction of a second or a millenium is almost incidental, when seen relative to eternity. Since the Catholic Church hasn't made any statement about the duration of time spent for anyone in Purgatory (*), maybe we could at least content ourselves with an agreement that a soul must be without a single impurity before entering heaven. Fair enough?

(*) Note that there was/is a practice of associating particular indulgences with periods of time, but these times were not meant to be a measure of time in purgatory.
[quote name='FullTruth' post='1210667' date='Mar 8 2007, 11:08 PM']There seems so much to it, so complex.[/quote]The first thing that comes to mind when I read this is: a measure of simplicity or complexity has no bearing on determining Truth. A statement is either True or it is not.
[quote name='FullTruth' post='1210667' date='Mar 8 2007, 11:08 PM']The way God forgave the sins of Israel in the old testament was sacrifice first, the priest washing himself in the laver second, and going into the holy of the holiess third to sprinkle the blood on the Ark of the covenant.

The way God currently forgives sins now is repentance first (sacrifice/You starting the new birth experience), baptism second (the circumcision of the heart/You being born again of the water/washing of the priesthood), and infilling of the holy ghost third (the spirit filling the new tabernacle/temple/YOU being born again of the spirit!) Acts 2:38, which was Peter's, the first 'Pope' message to humanity.[/quote]This separation of being born-again and baptism is a novel teaching of the Reformation. In this case, the Catholic Truth happens to be simpler than the more complex Reformation theory. We are born again in the waters of Baptism.

I would agree with your tabernacle/temple metaphor, but I don't think that the "infilling of the Holy Ghost" (as you write it) is a third step in God's forgiveness of sins.

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1210667' date='Mar 8 2007, 11:08 PM']God's way has always been Sacrifice, washing and filling things with his spirit to bring blessings into the world.[/quote]Not sure exactly where this is going. Maybe something like, "God has always showered us with His Grace"?

[Mr.Cat]

Invisible Ignorance, traditional Catholic teaching. One does not have to implicitly know of their need to baptized to obtain Baptism of Desire.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1210799' date='Mar 9 2007, 02:07 AM']Infants can recieve Baptism of Blood, though, now that I think about it the Holy Innocents could not have recieved BOB since the Sacrament of Baptism wasn't instituted until later.

Children cannot recieve Baptism of Desire since they cannot desire something until they have reached the age of reason.[/quote]
Infants desire milk. Prenatal babies desire to live to such an extent that they flee the abortionist.

Of course, maybe by "desire" you mean "volition." However, the teaching says "if they would have desired Baptism had they known..." By saying, "had they known," it could be taken that it provides that not all will have the use of reason to know that Baptism is what they desired. I don't know, and I think the jury is out on whether BOD applies to babies, but I think there is room for disagreement on what is meant. Anyway, let the Church determine the matter. All I know is that my theology professor tells me that it has been declared that miscarried or aborted children to not go to hell. If the Church does away with the theory of limbo, then that only leaves one option. I'm banking on God's mercy.

[God Conquers]

Hey it's David's flowchart!

I know that guy!


Showing the two flowcharts against each other is disengeuous.

One is about DOCTRINE

The other SALVATION.

We could come up with a flow chart just as simple for salvation:

Person + Grace = Salvation.

There... make you guys happy?


Of course it's missing some finer points... JUST LIKE YOURS.