Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1210288' date='Mar 8 2007, 06:43 AM']I would think the SIMPLE PLAN OF SALVATION would be a bit more appealing to folks, but thats humans for you, always wanting to make everything more complicated.[/quote] You know, ideally, it would be as simply as accepting God's grace with living faith once-for-all. However, men fall...and we slip...and we slide...and we try to get back up again, but can't without grace...and even when we do, we get back up but are still hunched over. The reason the Catholic view of salvation is "complex" is not because we have a faulty view of God's plan, but because we know man's nature to be faulty. The things which make it "complex" are contingencies God put into His very simple plan because He knew that we would fall. Since God accommodates my weakness by adding extra means of grace and ample opportunity to turn back to Him, I am grateful for that system. Yours simply isn't realistic. If God went by your views, we'd all be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1209948' date='Mar 7 2007, 04:24 PM']This is why 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Why would God make the gospel too complicated for most of the world to understand? Considering the different levels of education, literacy and more? God made the true gospel simple and direct for a reason. [img]http://i18.tinypic.com/2iktcft.jpg[/img] This means turn to Christ ALONE {not to sacraments, pope, purgatory etc}[/quote] So in other words that 1500 pages of Bible is just a smokescreen. All you have to realize is once you say a sinners prayer it's done. Once Saved Always Saved types nullify the word of God. Catholicism is not that hard to understand. Further those who do not have a great understanding of it can still fully enjoy the benefits. Its not about what you know but how you live and God gives the grace for that so if we trust in him he will lead us through the desert of life to the promised land. That's complicated? Believing in him is a day to day thing. Not a one time head bob. Edited March 8, 2007 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I don't really like the 'Catholic flow chart' Budge posted. It seems to say that man is continually reincarnated which is totally heretical. It also has it so that non-baptized infants don't go to the hell or limbo which I would say is borderline heretical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1209948' date='Mar 7 2007, 04:24 PM']This is why 2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Why would God make the gospel too complicated for most of the world to understand? Considering the different levels of education, literacy and more? God made the true gospel simple and direct for a reason. [img]http://i18.tinypic.com/2iktcft.jpg[/img] This means turn to Christ ALONE {not to sacraments, pope, purgatory etc}[/quote] It's not complicated. Believe in Jesus Christ and be saved. That believing means believing in what he taught however. Not just a head bob as I said before. It's a walk more than a talk. We are to take up our cross daily and follow him. By the way understanding comes on different levels. One is only accountable for the level the are capable of understanding. To get from point A to B one drives a car. Do they have to understand all the internal workings of the car? No. A father needs to know more than the rest of the family so he can keep it in proper maintenance. A mechanic needs to know more and the engineers know more yet. But all can drive the car. The gospel you preach is easy believism. Godfare. Welfare appeals to man. Free money. No work. That's not God's way. He gives us the talents (5,2, or 1) but expects us to work or we will be cast out. I'm sure you've read the parable. I've actually had people tell me the one with one was saved but he just lost his reward. Nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1210406' date='Mar 8 2007, 02:37 PM']It also has it so that non-baptized infants don't go to the hell or limbo which I would say is borderline heretical.[/quote] No it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1210406' date='Mar 8 2007, 03:37 PM']I don't really like the 'Catholic flow chart' Budge posted. It seems to say that man is continually reincarnated which is totally heretical. It also has it so that non-baptized infants don't go to the hell or limbo which I would say is borderline heretical.[/quote] Kind of hard not to have 'flow' in a flow chart. It looks like reincarnation, but one could say that's not what it means and that would be misinterpreting it. I believe that is why they have them on opposite sides... As all man comes from God and we try to return to him in Heaven. However, if we do reach Heaven, we are not then reincarnated and do it all again. As for unbaptized infants, it does say "The Chrust trusts that infants who die before baptism, and honest seekers of Truth who are ignorant to the Gospel receive God's mercy." as per CCC 1261 and 1283. Though, I don't think they should have an arrow going to Heaven as that makes it seem definite. Edited March 8, 2007 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I was merely skimming through this topic and the main theme appears to be, (paraphrase) “Protestant belief should be more appealing than Catholic belief.” I find this rather shocking since religious belief is not a matter of personal appeal but is a matter of embarrassing reality, when we turn religious belief into something to please us we are not serving God but rather we are serving ourselves. Moreover, I think if people wanted something “very simple” they would simply believe in nothing. Then I read about why complexity is bad. In this flowchart of “salvation” in the Protestant belief I don’t see anything about how sin is forgiven, the role of Baptism, what to do with disbelief, the role of works, and the list goes on. All of this questions the simple “yes, I believe” regardless of your outlook. If you claim to accept salvation but then turn around and join the occult, do you really accept salvation? Simply put if you really put Protestant belief into a flowchart it would be contradictory and very hard to understand, so the complaint against the Catholic flowchart is nonsensical. Moreover, because we as Catholics believe in what our Blessed Lord taught and commanded we believe that this is not the “whole” of doctrine but rather there is more to be said and done. Life in Christ is supposed to be an involved life, not one where we “accept” and God disappears from our life in Christ. I think if people were looking for something appealing they would want an active life of achieving salvation with God in their own lives instead of God just showing up for that one split second (if it really worked like this) then disappearing off. So putting all the heretical doctrines here aside the argument being put forth here I simply don’t understand. If one truly believes in our Blessed Lord, what does that mean? But this once saved always saved theology and “accepting our Blessed Lord” didn’t come about till about the nineteen hundreds, so I ponder what people believed before this. Remember the Church is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth; the fullness of truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote]I was merely skimming through this topic and the main theme appears to be, (paraphrase) “Protestant belief should be more appealing than Catholic belief.” I find this rather shocking since religious belief is not a matter of personal appeal but is a matter of embarrassing reality, when we turn religious belief into something to please us we are not serving God but rather we are serving ourselves. Moreover, I think if people wanted something “very simple” they would simply believe in nothing.[/quote] This is a very good point. Jesus said "take up your cross and follow me". Not it's going to be easy and then ya all get raptured before the proverbial cow dung hits the fan (tribulatoin). Easy beleivism is appealing. Easy salvation! Say a sinners prayer and your in like flint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) [quote name='thessalonian']No it's not.[/quote] Yeah it is. [quote][b]The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:[/b] 16 Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation? A. Baptism is absolutely necessary to salvation, for our Lord has expressly said: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.HTM[/url][/quote] [quote name='CatholicCid']Kind of hard not to have 'flow' in a flow chart. It looks like reincarnation, but one could say that's not what it means and that would be misinterpreting it. I believe that is why they have them on opposite sides... As all man comes from God and we try to return to him in Heaven. However, if we do reach Heaven, we are not then reincarnated and do it all again.[/quote] I think the maker of that chart should not have started man out where he did. Man shouldn't look like he is descending from the heavens becuase that's not what happens. God creates our soul (which formerly did not exist) and infuses it into our body at the moment of our conception. The chart also should have man who dies in grace going to heaven rather then going to the Trinity becuase it looks like Catholics believe that man becomes God after his death. Edited March 8, 2007 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1210406' date='Mar 8 2007, 03:37 PM']I don't really like the 'Catholic flow chart' Budge posted. It seems to say that man is continually reincarnated which is totally heretical. It also has it so that non-baptized infants don't go to the hell or limbo which I would say is borderline heretical.[/quote] The CCC (1261) states: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism." It's presumably because of the effects of Original Sin that infants wouldn't be saved, and yet there's a question mark because of the whole age of reason issue(?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 I generally tend to leave radical traditionalist alone because generally their zeal keeps radical liberals (those who oppose the faith) in check. Also because it makes for good conversation and in that conversation people come to a better understanding of doctrine. But I was reading this: The first is that infants whom do not have Sacramental Baptism are eternally dammed, if such a user would be willing to answer how the Holy Innocents (feast day of the church) could be indeed saved? Moreover could such a user provide a document of the Church holding authority states that infants cannot attain salvation in one of the other forms of Baptism that we have been made aware of? The second is reincarnation, which Catholics do not believe in, but in the flow chart there is no arrow connecting Particular Judgment and Purification to be born again. Moreover the phrase on the chart saying “Start Here” proposes that one starts here only once instead of like charts that propose a cycle there is no “Start Here” for it is continues into infinity. Moreover, because most people already know the Catholic Church condemns reincarnation as a false teaching for we have only one life to live. The third is about us becoming apart of the Trinity, in of this question I started to ponder the “radical traditional” aspect because if they attended the traditional rite of mass this phrase should be alive and active in their heads.[quote][b]John 1:12[/b] "But as many as received him, [u]he gave them power [b]to be made the sons of God[/b][/u], to them that believe in his name." [url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50001.htm[/url][/quote]At the end of every traditional rite mass this is said, which shows that we share in the Divine Sonship of our Blessed Lord in Baptism thus becoming an adopted family of God. This is the supernatural life of the soul that we are sharing in the Divine Sonship thus becoming more than spiritual slaves or property but children of the Most High God. For when we are born we have no supernatural life in spirit but a natural life in spirit, being nothing more than a creature without merit. Then in reflecting the doctrines of the Communion of the Saints that were clarified at the First Vatican Council and moreover called for in the Creed of Pope Pius the Fourth stating:[quote][b]Creed of Pope Pius the Fourth [/b] "Likewise, that the saints, reigning together with Christ, are to be honored and invoked, and that they offer prayers to God for us, and that their relics are to be venerated." [url="http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html"]http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Sy...ridentinae.html[/url][/quote]So the Saints reign with and under our Blessed Lord, as it is written in the Sacred Scriptures.[quote][b]Apocalypse 2:26-28[/b] "And he that shall overcome, and keep my works unto the end, I will give him power over the nations. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and as the vessel of a potter they shall be broken, As I also have received of my Father: and I will give him the morning star." [url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/73002.htm[/url][/quote]Moreover because we are created by God to return to live with God, I don’t think the arrow going back to God is confusing at all but rather is a good reflection of Catholic Doctrine. Even though some more explanation may be required for those whom may take it the wrong way, but everyone can figure out a way to take something wrong. Look at the Protestants, a single verse has caused hundreds of thousands of disagreements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1210444' date='Mar 8 2007, 04:41 PM']I think the maker of that chart should not have started man out where he did. Man shouldn't look like he is descending from the heavens becuase that's not what happens. God creates our soul (which formerly did not exist) and infuses it into our body at the moment of our conception. The chart also should have man who dies in grace going to heaven rather then going to the Trinity becuase it looks like Catholics believe that man becomes God after his death.[/quote] I do agree that there should be a few more details added in, to clarify the meaning to help avoid flow chart confusion, or flowusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 STM, your quotes from St. Pius X only provide for Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire. They do not say that unbaptized infants are damned. They answer of a definitive positive answer does not mean that we should assume the negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Well met, my friends. [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1210493' date='Mar 8 2007, 05:46 PM']I do agree that there should be a few more details added in, to clarify the meaning to help avoid flow chart confusion, or flowusion.[/quote] Flowusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthSeeker777 Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1209738' date='Mar 7 2007, 06:36 PM']cute but a lie, its not biblical.[/quote] THese kids are cute too. But their actions are not quite biblical? [url="http://www.remnantofgod.org/pix/dagon_jpg_view.htm"]Cute Catholic kids.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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