Mateo el Feo Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Should we all get together and write up a "salvation use-case", and model salvation in UML? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 ironically budge. your model isnt "christian" heck, it isnt even protestant, heck, it isnt even evangelical. I was taught a different model from an academic evangelical bible college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Azriel' post='1210067' date='Mar 7 2007, 08:20 PM']I draw process models for a living .... I could have done a much better job. [/quote] You do everything better hon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 Im not a computer person, just so you all know.. [quote]According you your chart, there is a continual circle of being saved... And grace can flow all the way to unsaved. It doesn't make any sense at all.[/quote]well the YES points back to saved, and No means unsaved. I suppose they could have drawn that more clearly. [quote] You must endure to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.[/quote] Sure....{Im with you there} And with the HOly Spirit indwelling one will be given the strength to endure to the end. [quote]You must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27.[/quote]You dont have to suffer for your own salvation. Now one may suffer persecution and for the gospel, but one does not have to suffer to earn their salvation. Jesus completed the job. [quote]You must be baptized with water. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5 Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21.[/quote] Baptism is a ordinance of salvation. That is what saves. The thief on the cross was never baptized. There is no "magic" in the water making you saved. It is a sign of your salvation. [quote]You must be a member in God's true church. Acts 2:47.[/quote]If you are born again in Jesus Christ, that is automatic. [quote]You must confess your sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9[/quote] Sure, but to even become saved, you must repent. The Holy Spirit will call a Christian to continued repentance. [quote]You must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21[/quote]Sure but one sin doesnt cast you out as the adopted member of God's family. Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Holy Spirit chastises Christians who do sin. I know this myself. Again you folks confuse justification with sanctification. [quote] You must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.[/quote] And I do, peter as one of the apostles taught many good thins, such as telling Cornelius to stand, Silver and Gold I have none and much more. [quote] You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16, I Corinthians 11:23-29 [/quote]I have done what Jesus CHrist mandated as that is symbolic, the eating of the WORD, becoming born again. It is not literal cannabalism. Does this verse mean someone is actually supposed to go eat paper and ink? [b]Moreover He said to me, "Son of man, eat what you find; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel." So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that scroll (Ezekiel 3:1, 2).[/b] [quote] Everyday, Budge reveals more of her ignorance.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 Socrates youre a smart guy, cant you do a better job of answering my posts then this? [quote] And aren't flow-charts unBiblical practices??[/quote]Dont know anything about that. [quote] Apparently, these Scripture verses are too complicated for Budge to handle. Budge wants a bumpersticker, not a Bible.[/quote] Thats funny given Catholics repeat the same 5-7 verses over and over, Ill give Knight of Christ credit, thats the most scripture Ive seen a Catholic use, even in a copy and paste! [quote] The key point in Budge's soteriological chart is that human free choice determines whether or not a man is saved. In other words, if a man chooses to accept grace he is saved, but if he chooses to reject grace he is damned. Thus, according to Budge's chart each man saves himself, and that is what makes the chart so very interesting.[/quote]Well I dont want to get into arguments of predestination here, Im not a Calvinist but I do believe God calls His children to Him, as much as we can understand of that. However you have to make the choice to be a good and devoted Catholic dont you? So how is that any different? [quote]It's also strange that in Budgianity, all mankind is born saved (i.e. no Original Sin), and a person can only un-save himself or herself. I wonder if Budge realizes that this is closer to Islamic teachings than Christian soteriology.[/quote] Where did I say or this chart that everyone is born saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theculturewarrior Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Everybody wants an easy answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 budge.. How can you critique an answer? You rarely provide them back. It is a debate table, not a hit and run table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1210102' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:51 PM']Thats funny given Catholics repeat the same 5-7 verses over and over, Ill give Knight of Christ credit, thats the most scripture Ive seen a Catholic use, even in a copy and paste![/quote] You must not talk to many Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1210102' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:51 PM']Well I dont want to get into arguments of predestination here, Im not a Calvinist but I do believe God calls His children to Him, as much as we can understand of that. However you have to make the choice to be a good and devoted Catholic dont you? So how is that any different?[/quote]It's different because the "simple chart" of Budgianity has no hint of the reality of Original Sin, and people (according to the chart) start out saved and are un-saved after. [quote name='Budge' post='1210102' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:51 PM']Where did I say or this chart that everyone is born saved?[/quote]You sacrificed completeness at the altar of simplicity. If you think that some people do not receive the grace of faith, and are pre-destined to hell, then you are a Calvinist who doesn't make complete flow-charts. Maybe we could help you create version 2.0 of the Budgianity flow chart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azriel Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1210100' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:50 PM']You do everything better hon![/quote] Wow. A fan! Could you email my boss??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Better yet, get Azriel to do it. She could make it look professional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1209701' date='Mar 7 2007, 12:46 PM'][img]http://i19.tinypic.com/2mqq3ch.jpg[/img] Now, here is the model I believe in: [img]http://i16.tinypic.com/2h7fay8.gif[/img][/quote] That's an awesome chart I shalt save it for future catechetical use. And you pointed me to another great Catholic apologetics source. Thanks Budge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 (edited) [quote]That's an awesome chart I shalt save it for future catechetical use. And you pointed me to another great Catholic apologetics source. Thanks Budge![/quote] Well glad to hear it...but not really... I would think the SIMPLE PLAN OF SALVATION would be a bit more appealing to folks, but thats humans for you, always wanting to make everything more complicated. Edited March 8, 2007 by Budge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Your assumption (like atheism) that the simplest of two choices is necessarily the correct choice is deeply flawed and anti-biblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1210288' date='Mar 8 2007, 06:43 AM']Well glad to hear it...but not really... I would think the SIMPLE PLAN OF SALVATION would be a bit more appealing to folks, but thats humans for you, always wanting to make everything more complicated. [/quote]Make salvation simple instead? Sounds like a Unitarian-Universalist way of thinking. Looking forward to your revised flow chart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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