Catholic Flowchart Vs. Christian Flowchart

[Budge]

[img]http://i19.tinypic.com/2mqq3ch.jpg[/img]


Now, here is the model I believe in:

[img]http://i16.tinypic.com/2h7fay8.gif[/img]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

We believe in choosing God with living faith and bearing our crosses daily. Naturally, there are many snares along the way and thus we must constantly strive to turn toward God. Your chart ignores the fact that people fall, ignores that conversion is a process, ignores that God has said to have living faith, ignores that God purifies, and ignores many other facets of human nature and reality in general. Why?

God bless,

Micah

[thessalonian]

All your chart shows is how you are able to decieve the simple minded with fanceful promises of assured salvatoin. People don't want to face up to their sin and acknowledge it and be healed of it. Your little simplistic chart suits them just fine. It's a lie.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209701' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:46 AM']Now, here is the model I believe in:

[img]http://i16.tinypic.com/2h7fay8.gif[/img][/quote]

cute but a lie, its not biblical.

[123]

I do agree, it seems too simplitic for 2000 years of Eccumenical heritage. I fancy the Catholic version. Reason being is that your system has no tradition. Your system wasn't developed apostolically, as ours was. Hence, why the Catholic system seems so complex. Thessalonian nailed it, its a lie because its deceptive. It's fallible because its only a skin-and-bones model, there is no "meat" to the graph.

Edited March 7, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209701' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:46 AM'][img]http://i19.tinypic.com/2mqq3ch.jpg[/img]
Now, here is the model I believe in:

[img]http://i16.tinypic.com/2h7fay8.gif[/img][/quote]

Better minds than mine can help me out here, but here's my understanding:

1. The default Catholic position is that everyone is saved.
2. The default Evangelical / Fundamentalist position is that everyone is damned.

Hence, in the Evangelical / Fundamentalist position, people in the remotest corners of the earth who have never heard the Gospel are damned, which, among other things, certainly flies in the face of natural justice. Ironically, for the "faith not works" crowd, the prerequisite of belief certainly seems to represent a "work," i.e. if you believe, you're saved, if you don't believe / stop believing, you're damned.

BTW, and as an aside, what does it matter which model you believe? Which is the biblical model? In addition, your "Catholic" model is wrong in numerous ways, e.g. "early death," "second conversion."

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1209750' date='Mar 7 2007, 11:53 AM']Better minds than mine can help me out here, but here's my understanding:

1. The default Catholic position is that everyone is saved.
2. The default Evangelical / Fundamentalist position is that everyone is damned.

Hence, in the Evangelical / Fundamentalist position, people in the remotest corners of the earth who have never heard the Gospel are damned, which, among other things, certainly flies in the face of natural justice. Ironically, for the "faith not works" crowd, the prerequisite of belief certainly seems to represent a "work," i.e. if you believe, you're saved, if you don't believe / stop believing, you're damned.

BTW, and as an aside, what does it matter which model you believe? Which is the biblical model? In addition, your "Catholic" model is wrong in numerous ways, e.g. "early death," "second conversion."[/quote]
The default Catholic position is not that everyone is saved, but that everyone should be and can be.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1209764' date='Mar 7 2007, 12:18 PM']The default Catholic position is not that everyone is saved, but that everyone should be and can be.[/quote]

To clarify: everyone is saved unless one knowingly rejects Jesus. In other words, salvation is a free gift to all, the benefits of which we receive unless we willfully reject it. Hence, those who have never heard of Jesus are saved if they live in accordance with God's will to the best of their ability based on a) what can be known about God through nature and b) human reason.

[son_of_angels]

ken, you are quite incorrect, and are echoing only the heresies of Pelagius. First of all, no person is "saved" coming into this world, nor are they justified/sanctified, which is required since, "through Adam sin entered the world." Rather, a person is "saved" only when they at last die in a state of grace, so that they, either through the fires of Purgatory await entry to heaven, or without Purgatory are able to ascend to the beatific vision, unless one is speaking specifically about a certain "temporal" salvation from sin, ignorance, depravity, etc.

In order for someone to be justified, there must be an infusion of sanctifying grace, which comes ordinarily through Baptism. The Church, however, acknowledges that it is at least conceivable, through the mystery of God, that sanctifying grace comes without the means of Baptism in an extraordinary manner, so that those who do not intellectually know the Gospel, might receive that faith "without which it is impossible to please" God and serve God through the action of grace in their consciences. It does not mean, in any way, that a person who simply never rejects Jesus or Christianity, and lives a good life, is guarranteed salvation, because, thanks to the corruption of original sin, we do not even have the capacity to endure the beatific vision prepared for us. Sanctifying grace is required for all, not just some.

If you're model was correct, for example, every person would be justified upon entry to the world, which is clearly contrary to the teaching of St. Paul, St. Augustine, and church doctrine itself. Sanctifying grace is always and everywhere required for salvation.

[Mateo el Feo]

What translation of the Bible uses flowcharts? And where does it say that you are saved until you choose to "un-save" yourself?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='son_of_angels' post='1209800' date='Mar 7 2007, 01:14 PM']ken, you are quite incorrect, and are echoing only the heresies of Pelagius. First of all, no person is "saved" coming into this world, nor are they justified/sanctified, which is required since, "through Adam sin entered the world." Rather, a person is "saved" only when they at last die in a state of grace, so that they, either through the fires of Purgatory await entry to heaven, or without Purgatory are able to ascend to the beatific vision, unless one is speaking specifically about a certain "temporal" salvation from sin, ignorance, depravity, etc.

In order for someone to be justified, there must be an infusion of sanctifying grace, which comes ordinarily through Baptism. The Church, however, acknowledges that it is at least conceivable, through the mystery of God, that sanctifying grace comes without the means of Baptism in an extraordinary manner, so that those who do not intellectually know the Gospel, might receive that faith "without which it is impossible to please" God and serve God through the action of grace in their consciences. It does not mean, in any way, that a person who simply never rejects Jesus or Christianity, and lives a good life, is guarranteed salvation, because, thanks to the corruption of original sin, we do not even have the capacity to endure the beatific vision prepared for us. Sanctifying grace is required for all, not just some.

If you're model was correct, for example, every person would be justified upon entry to the world, which is clearly contrary to the teaching of St. Paul, St. Augustine, and church doctrine itself. Sanctifying grace is always and everywhere required for salvation.[/quote]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1209710' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:05 AM']All your chart shows is how you are able to decieve the simple minded with fanceful promises of assured salvatoin. People don't want to face up to their sin and acknowledge it and be healed of it. Your little simplistic chart suits them just fine. It's a lie.[/quote]


Thes, that was awesome.

Budge, My flow chart would say if I ate an oreo cookie I would look like Brad Pitt. I can rest assure that I will look like brad pitt if I eat my cookie. Or maybe even just accepting the idea that I need the cookie, or wait, maybe just accepting that I wanna look like brad pitt can make me look like brad pitt. Why would I ever have to do anything at all? And since it is just an intellectual thing I guess I need no change, and I need never change the decision.

**look like Brad PItt, look like BRad Pitt**

did it work, or do I still look like Nick Lachey?

[son_of_angels]

Budge, you're chart isn't quite as simple as the Catholic chart. The Catholic chart demands that for each sin, mortal sin that is, one must be contrite and seek forgiveness, the means of that forgiveness are in every case the same, namely, those things which the Bible instructs us as being capable of making salvation possible, "Baptism," and the Church, "whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven." Both of these are mutually inclusive, and, likewise, they come from the same source, our Lord Jesus Christ. This is why perfect contrition, with Jesus as its object, to forgive sin without the Church, although the temporal effect, the "binding" effect of sin remains. You see, written out as a theory the Church's approach is quite simple and, moreover, more essentially Christian, as, in all cases, the authority and the ability to forgive sin is rooted in Jesus Christ "that you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins."

However, your approach is more difficult. The once-for-all method of salvation demands that there is an ongoing action of actual intervention, such that one is either prevented from sinning, or, if one sins, there is no punishment for that sin because God chooses to ignore it. Note here, then, that there is little reason for Christ's atonement if God can simply putatively forgive sins, rather than forgive them by an actual infusion of grace, because an "imputed grace" or "fiduciary faith" only requires the willful ignorance of the actor, rather than a full completion of justice. Mercy, as Aquinas points out, is not contrary to justice but rather is higher than what is required of justice, as the Scriptures say, "mercy and justice have met each other." If Jesus simply putatively made someone "saved" then he could have done the same under the law, with all of its sacrifices, ordinances, etc.

However, in all this there is no "forgiveness" that goes on, only the assumption of innocence, without reason, and/or the prevention of any guilt in the first place. This is contrary to the nature of sin, which we find in the book of Hebrews, "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment" so to say that mortal sin is actually damning and mortal. In your system sin keeps changing meaning, which means that you are, in going against Ockham's razor "increasing beings without necessity," and so making the judge of actions ever more and more complex.

[Budge]

[quote]Reason being is that your system has no tradition. Your system wasn't developed apostolically, as ours was. Hence, why the Catholic system seems so complex. Thessalonian nailed it, its a lie because its deceptive. It's fallible because its only a skin-and-bones model, there is no "meat" to the graph.[/quote]Thats good because Tradition has messed things up within Catholicism.
[b]
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.[/b]
[[quote]
**look like Brad PItt, look like BRad Pitt**[/quote]

None of that made any sense...


[quote]
This is why perfect contrition, with Jesus as its object, to forgive sin without the Church, although the temporal effect, the "binding" effect of sin remains.[/quote]The Catholic system is binding and bondage of its own, one sin and youre out? Even fathers on earth more love then that for their children.

[quote]
The once-for-all method of salvation demands that there is an ongoing action of actual intervention, such that one is either prevented from sinning, or, if one sins, there is no punishment for that sin because God chooses to ignore it.[/quote]

Dont get justification mixed up with sanctification.

When a Christian sins, the Holy Spirit does deal with them, there many even be chastisement.

There is none of this getting tossed overboard for every sin, IN one day and OUT the next. Every Catholic school kid has had this little discussion, what if you did a mortal sin, like fight with mother or get in fistfight, and get run over by a bus over to confession? Would you go to hell?
[quote]

If Jesus simply putatively made someone "saved" then he could have done the same under the law, with all of its sacrifices, ordinances, etc.[/quote]My worry for Catholics is they seem to only believe Jesus opened the door for the possiblity of their salvation, rather then being the author and finisher of the faith. Honestly what do you believe that Christ accomplished on the cross for you? Full forgiveness of your sins present past and future once you accept His gift or not? One reason I deny Purgatory is because it basically says that what Jesus did on the cross was insufficient.

[quote]
In your system sin keeps changing meaning, which means that you are, in going against Ockham's razor "increasing beings without necessity," and so making the judge of actions ever more and more complex.[/quote]

No not really.

Most savedChristians will attest to being released from sin via the work of the Holy Spirit within them. Sure Christians can slip up and sin, but this does not mean they have lost their salvation. I believe what Christ did on the cross was for past, present and FUTURE sins.

[Budge]

One thing to remember it is NOTHING about YOU, and ALL ABOUT HIM {JESUS CHRIST}

[quote]
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[/quote]And then there's this stuff:

[quote]
Romans 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (NKJV)

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.[/quote]