Heart Trouble

[zdog042]

Addendum:

I find it interesting that I am not tagged with a red-letter fundy tag. I even asked for one so that people don't get confused by what I say. If a mod sees this, please label me as not representing catholicism. While I may defend them as my brothers, I am not catholic.

I try to get that added to my profile every time I post (so, once every few months) and nothing comes from it. Maybe it's a sign from God through all y'all that I should become Catholic?

Also, I guess it hasn't been two years I'm signed up. Just 1 year, 4 months. So I'm averaging 1.4 posts per month. Maybe that's why I'm not given a red-letter tag....

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='zdog042' post='1215283' date='Mar 17 2007, 11:43 PM']Addendum:

I find it interesting that I am not tagged with a red-letter fundy tag. I even asked for one so that people don't get confused by what I say. If a mod sees this, please label me as not representing catholicism. While I may defend them as my brothers, I am not catholic.

I try to get that added to my profile every time I post (so, once every few months) and nothing comes from it. Maybe it's a sign from God through all y'all that I should become Catholic?

Also, I guess it hasn't been two years I'm signed up. Just 1 year, 4 months. So I'm averaging 1.4 posts per month. Maybe that's why I'm not given a red-letter tag....[/quote]
welcome back and stick around this time

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't know way you guys engage budge. he acts like a washed up joke. i wonder if he listens to himself. or if he expects people to take him seriously. sadly, people here do. or at least they're trying to reason him who is unreasonable. he doesn't entertain discussion and always runs away. he's consiracy theory to whatever the wind blows.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209931' date='Mar 7 2007, 05:04 PM']Toastmasters? Can you talk to God in your OWN Words and not in someone else's script? Dont you think GOd would want You to talk to Him in your own words?[/quote]

Budge,

One of the benefits of structured, formal prayer is that it keeps you focused on the things you should be praying for.

[zdog042]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1215554' date='Mar 18 2007, 04:05 PM']Budge,

One of the benefits of structured, formal prayer is that it keeps you focused on the things you should be praying for.[/quote]


Praise God. ADD brains benefit a lot from a structured prayer.

[Budge]

[i]
Budge, I am sorry that you were not receptive to the teaching of the Eucharist. To see the wafer at the age of 10 and not be able to understand the abstract thought that went into the teaching of the Eucharist would lead many people astray[/i]

Considering the gospel is simple enough for even the most illiterate and uneducated folks to understand, at age 10, I was more then literate and this had nothing to do with my shortcomings as a youngster, but more to do with the false teaching.
[i]
However, because you, along with most brains at the age of 10, were not able to think abstractly in this way does not mean that it is wrong. The bible is not only a base level teaching which can be understood by 10 year olds. There is incredible honesty with a child, but they are not up to teaching everything. I advise that you go back to the teachings, pray, study, and see what you come up with. If you come up with a negative answer again, that is ok with me, at least you have tried with a prayerfully open.
[/i]

Already been done. I read Scott Hahn books even before my departure years ago. I research Catholicism probably more then your average person considering an outside site I work on.
[i]
Third, It is my understanding that through the mass, every verse of scripture is read over a three-year period of time. To the best of my knowledge, nothing is ommitted[/i]

Actually on my board, we found out a LOT is snipped out, sometimes even one sentence in the middle of a paragraph. There is reasons for this. Ill have to do a thread to show you.
[i]

Here is an important point though, there are verse differences between a catholic and protestant bible. The wording is the same, but when you compare some versions, the numbering is a bit different depending on which text the translation came from. This is especially common in books such as Psalms, Esther, etc. I don't know if you already took that into consideration, but that might be something for you to make sure that your study on scripture in the mass covered. Also, if I am correct or wrong, please let me know all Catholics on here.[/i]

I used the NAB Bible where the scriptures are taken from right from the USCCB website.

[i]
Without it being in place and being recognized by all, there would have been no reason for them to examine the apostles.[/i]

They compared what the apostles taught to scripture, the Bereans. Who were the apostles but a bunch of ordinary men who followed Jesus to the eyes of those around them? The AUTHORITIES of that time were the ones who had Jesus arrested. I dare say I see way too much elevation of the clergy class in your words, you forget that distinction.

Every preacher, pastor and "authority" is to be held accountable to Gods Word.
[i]
Fifth, I was raised in a Cambellite church. I actually agree with most of your comments, except the cult one. That is because, when I use the word cult, I believe that it is no longer a part of Christianity at all and is on the wrong path. I can not say that the people inside and following the teaching of the Church of Christ/Christian churches are not christian anymore, so I can't call the system a cult. But, they have bankrupted a lot of christian faith and teaching, especially with their "we'll have unity as soon as everybody believes what I believe!" statements. I now attend and am interning at an Assembly of God church, so my spiritual journey has been very eclectic.[/i]

Actually Im kind of shocked to see an Assemby of God person, which I see as an overall decent denomination, defending elevation of the clergy class. I hope you are not under one of those preachers, I discovered a false one even within my own denomination...teaching TOUCH NOT the LORD's ANONITED meaning himself and teaching his church that they WERE NOT TO QUESTION anything he preached. Basically the opposite of the Bereans who were called noble.
[i]
Sixth, as far as I know, the teachings of the Catholic church are based in the bible, and the base beliefs can not exist without biblical support. So, I don't know where you see the beliefs being completely unbiblical, because their roots are in the bible.[/i]

Odd that given I know the Assembly of God teaches what I do regarding the Catholic church, {Ive visited Assembly of God churches} and have even been to their national website to see what they teach regarding Rome. They even reject openly ecumenism with Rome, one of the last holdouts, along with Calvary Chapel and fundamentalist churches.
[i]
However, Catholics agree with natural law, that what you do shapes who you are.[/i]

"Natural" law is vain philosophies.
[i]
This is sanctification. If you do good works, it helps your faith as you see a return coming from it. As your faith grows, so do your works, and then faith, and then works, etc.[/i]

Doing works for your return [or even as a self-improvement] exercise are just more filthy rags before God.

Unless one is led of God to do a work for HIs glory...it is worthless.
[i]
So, "taking the wafer" is not something that is merely done to assure salvation, but it is to recieve the grace which God pours out through the sacrament to aid in the journey of christianity.[/i]

I wonder if your Assembly of God congregation knows of your heretical beliefs....[because you do not believe the way they do]

I know the Emergent movement is hitting everywhere even strongholds of fundamentalism, but wowzer!

God does not need Sacraments to give His grace to someone. The whole notion of sacraments being a channel of grace, is more of Romes putting their clergy class as a middleman between man and God.


[i]

Within Catholic study, this is the most significant way to recieve God's grace, as you are [u]physically digesting a wafer which grace, as you are physically digesting a wafer which is God.[/u] I do not have the knowledge to speak authoratatively on this, so I will stop here.[/i]

Here is what Jesus said about digestion.

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught {TOILET}?
[i]
Eigth, from Protestant to protestant, if you are so negative on your current church, why do you stay there? Find another church where you can bless others and they can bless you.[/i]


I am not a Protestant but a Christian. Probably technically to you a fundamentalist Christian. I moved recently. I loved my last church which was a good church. I was taught to be a Berean in that church and test pastors and everything else via Gods Word. This is what my humble pastor there taught me.

[i]Two years signed up on phatmass, and I think I have yet to hit 25 posts. It takes a bit to target me on something to post on, but if I see my catholic brothers being called satanists (which they would be if their church is of satan and not from God), I have to jump to their rescue. I've seen the problems satanism causes, and that is not within the mass or the catholic faith.[/i]


The three people I was addressing, are not Catholic.

One actually was teaching people to pursue demons to send them to hell "for God" and your problems rests with ME instead?

[i]
One of the benefits of structured, formal prayer is that it keeps you focused on the things you should be praying for.[/i]
The conversation comes natural when there is a relationship.
[i]

Praise God. ADD brains benefit a lot from a structured prayer. smile.gif[/i]

Do married people need to be given a script to talk to their beloved?

Same thing...

talk to God in your OWN Words.

[zdog042]

Sorry Budge, this statement made me laugh. I guess we are using the word "natural" differently.

[color="#FF0000"]"Natural" law is vain philosophies[/color]

I was talking about Romans 1:19-20 type of natural law, the type where the attributes of God are visible in man and in creation. (e.g. Since every action makes something happen here on earth, it is safe to assume that God does things that make things happen as well.) I was not talking about any philosophy. Since we see that working out makes us mentally healthier, it is safe to assume that it would work with other aspects of our life as well. Especially since Jesus linked sin with thoughts in Matt 5:27-28, and [u]just[/u] looking at what we can see in our lives, I thought it was safe to say that doing physical things can affect the way that we relate to God. Isnt' that the definition of sin? An action performed which is an offense to God/draws us from him?

[color="#FF0000"]The three people I was addressing, are not Catholic.

One actually was teaching people to pursue demons to send them to hell "for God" and your problems rests with ME instead?[/color]

Actually, I didn't see any other people on this board besides Catholics. I might have missed them, because I do not know the bio of the people on the phatmass board here. But, what you are referencing was not talked about on this board. I was only talking about what happens on this board. One of the pitfalls of forums, not everybody reads everything on here

[color="#FF0000"]Do married people need to be given a script to talk to their beloved?[/color]

Sometimes, yes they do. Imagine this scenario. The bride has spit on the groom, walked out, and then proceeded to sleep with as many men as possible for many years. For some unseen reason (Holy Spirit?) the two are brought back together. How do you relate to the person, after having undergone significant mental trauma? In this case, having a script to talk with is very important so that the people can relearn to talk to each other. Eventually, you can learn how to have a conversation, but it takes time (sometimes years) and relating through those scripts is still helpful. I don't know if you will understand fully what I am saying, but take my word for it, that scripts actually do help married couples, particularly during trouble times (like when confessing wrongdoing) or when they are coming back together.

[color="#FF0000"]Actually Im kind of shocked to see an Assemby of God person, which I see as an overall decent denomination, defending elevation of the clergy class.[/color]

This actually shocked me. The AoG has a system set in place, where the pastor is the top of the church, and reports back to a presbyter, who reports back to the denominational headquarters. Yes, the pastor can be asked questions, but he is much like a priest in that the denomination has his back. The AoG has schools, seminars, all to train up their pastors in their doctrine. It definately smells like a clergy of sorts to me.

The pastor I am interning under is undergoing the voting process to become a regional presbyter (somewhat similar to a bishop, for catholics who may not know the verbage, from what I understand. I am still learning about how the AoG church works). I am not an AoG person, and this is my first time in a denominational structure church. So far, I am liking the experience.

[Budge]

[quote]
"Natural" law is vain philosophies

I was talking about Romans 1:19-20 type of natural law, the type where the attributes of God are visible in man and in creation. (e.g. Since every action makes something happen here on earth, it is safe to assume that God does things that make things happen as well.) I was not talking about any philosophy. Since we see that working out makes us mentally healthier, it is safe to assume that it would work with other aspects of our life as well. Especially since Jesus linked sin with thoughts in Matt 5:27-28, and just looking at what we can see in our lives, I thought it was safe to say that doing physical things can affect the way that we relate to God. Isnt' that the definition of sin? An action performed which is an offense to God/draws us from him?[/quote]Is all that is natural good? Diseases and Tsunamis are natural....
[quote]


The three people I was addressing, are not Catholic.

One actually was teaching people to pursue demons to send them to hell "for God" and your problems rests with ME instead?

Actually, I didn't see any other people on this board besides Catholics. I might have missed them, because I do not know the bio of the people on the phatmass board here. But, what you are referencing was not talked about on this board. I was only talking about what happens on this board. One of the pitfalls of forums, not everybody reads everything on here smile.gif[/quote]

Yeah you may have missed those posts, Ill give you that. It looks like the demon-hunting guy and his two friends are taking a break for now.
[quote]
Sometimes, yes they do. Imagine this scenario. The bride has spit on the groom, walked out, and then proceeded to sleep with as many men as possible for many years. For some unseen reason (Holy Spirit?) the two are brought back together. How do you relate to the person, after having undergone significant mental trauma? In this case, having a script to talk with is very important so that the people can relearn to talk to each other. Eventually, you can learn how to have a conversation, but it takes time (sometimes years) and relating through those scripts is still helpful. I don't know if you will understand fully what I am saying, but take my word for it, that scripts actually do help married couples, particularly during trouble times (like when confessing wrongdoing) or when they are coming back together.[/quote]Are you talking about psychological dialogues? I dont think a script is needed for that. Actually there are biblical grounds for divorce with outside fornication and adultery, but if they can forgive each other, all for the better. I dare say that is the time to be totally honest.
[quote]
Actually Im kind of shocked to see an Assemby of God person, which I see as an overall decent denomination, defending elevation of the clergy class.

This actually shocked me. The AoG has a system set in place, where the pastor is the top of the church, and reports back to a presbyter, who reports back to the denominational headquarters. Yes, the pastor can be asked questions, but he is much like a priest in that the denomination has his back. The AoG has schools, seminars, all to train up their pastors in their doctrine. It definately smells like a clergy of sorts to me.[/quote]

Actually they dont really "report back" to denominational headquarters, I know they are set up like SBC, where every local church has total control of finances and who is pastor. The denomination is more a resource for seminaries, information and conferences. Sure its clergy, but I was talking about elevation, where there is clergy class with total authority over laity. That is Roman Catholicism, not the A of G which I know has got to preach priesthood of the individual believer.

[zdog042]

[quote name='Budge' post='1216822' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:08 AM']Is all that is natural good?[/quote]

Nope, not all natural is good. But, not all natural is bad. So to throw out being able to look at natural rules is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You don't do anything wrong, but you miss out on the good that can come from it. Do you agree, or no?

[quote name='Budge' post='1216822' date='Mar 21 2007, 09:08 AM']Are you talking about psychological dialogues?.. I dare say that is the time to be totally honest.[/quote]

No, I am talking about face to face dialogues. Which I am also talking about with God, a dialogue, one-on-one with the creator. And I agree that that is the time to be honest. Sometimes it is too much to say your own words, so you need support and help. Being able to look at something and repeat it verbatim is a great help when talking with a person, so long as that is not the only type of conversation that you have. And, I have never met a catholic who believed that the only prayers they could or should pray were the ones that were written down. Whether or not they actually did it is a question that applies to both Protestants and Catholics, so it is doesn't need to be talked about here.

The "Sinner's Prayer" is an example of this, where a person does not know what to say, but follows the example of one who is praying. The "Now I lay me down to sleep" is another example. As a person is young in their faith, they need handrails to help them, and sometimes they need very strong and sturdy handrails to prevent them from slipping. However, as they grow, these can be taken away. Sadly, some Christians don't ever grow past their prayers that are based in spiritual milk.