Heart Trouble

[Budge]

[b]I will say it in plain language. It is impossible to do soteriology for augustine with the eucharist. I am an expert on Augustine (Some would say the trinitarian debate) and I can attest that His theology was incredibly catholic. If not dependant on aspects of catholicism that you would consider not equal with the gospel. So the question becomes how is your interpretation of what the gospel is better than Augustine. I will avoid church history as a whole right now because that is overwhelming. But what makes your system better than augustine, and not just better but more accurate to clear exegesis.[/b]

I disagree with Augustine. In fact I believe he caused endless harm to Christianity with his teachings of amillenialism and there are other teachings he went by I disagree with very much so...but of...

Course Augustine got some things right too,

Quote:God alone swears securely,[b] because HE ALONE IS INFALLIBLE[/b].--Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series: Volume VIII, St. Augustin on the Psalms, Psalm LXXXIX, Sec. 4 (My emphasis)
So Papal Infallibility??? [Even one of Catholicisms most lauded ECFs doesnt agree]

[b]

I consider fundamentalism to be based on being against catholicism.[/b]

No thats not right. Not many Christians are called to mission to Catholics, its actually one of the hardest areas to go. Most run as fast as they can go and never mention the word Catholic again.
[b]
But the eucharist is essential to christian development.[/b]

I believe it hinders it.

I had the wafer from 2nd grade on, I had parents devoted to weekly Mass and attended Catholic school for years as well.

I believe that the wafer led me away from God. "god" as inanimate object just sitting there. Idolatry really does destroy faith in "god". I know once at a Eucharist adoration, I knelt there with the nuns and kids thinking "god" is boring". {of course that really was not God}

[b]
Fundamentalism has been effected strongly by Kant. But eucharist is a way at getting around Kant. There is also much, much, much more to catholicism than just the eucharist. [/b]

I havent studied Kant, so maybe do a seperate thread on him.

Sure there is more, but the Eucharist is taught as being the center of Catholicism.


[b]What you would consider "true love and a relationship" is something I experienced in a genuine way as an evangelical, and that grew as a catholic. We could talk more about this indepth. But I do not see how catholicism lacks this. Evangelicals have a taste of this, but are missing parts and I feel that fulfillment of this is found in catholicism.[/b]

When you were an evangelical what kind of church were you in? Did you have good fellowship? It is hard for me to understand and relate to someone who would go from vibrant and true Christianity {it is possible you were in a fallen evangelical church that did not teach Biblical doctrine, many are going down the path to perdition a la Rick Warren} but do not understand why someone would go from the REAL GOLD to the fascimile! What were you missing as an evangelical you had to go find in Catholicism?

[b]
That is what started alot of my conversion. Having a more mature understanding of patristic theology. In understanding the Christ as the eternal logos (word) and not just warm and fuzzy.[/b]

The problem there is you were probably sucked in by Rome's vain philosophies. Most Theologians in the world are barely believers anymore, they study themsevles OUT of belief. I do not believe in Jesus Christ as hippie like so many do, warm and fuzzies, but how He really is in the Bible.
[b]
I do agree with you against luke-warm stance on issues. I have a friend who was replaced at an ELC lutheran church because he taught it was a sin to lie. To quote Peter kreeft "we live in a society where the eternal logos has been replaced with a warm and fuzzy"
[/b]
Dont listen to Peter Kreeft, in his book Ecumenical Jihad, there is so much that is wrong there, it isnt even funny. he actually teaches CHristians should YOKE to false satanic religions. I may put up a thread I did on him on another board here for you later.

Also too, Christians are to lead individuals to Christ, and let the HOlY SPIRIT CHANGE THEM, not instill plans for Dominionism, and FORCING everyone to be good...by law and force. {this is an error in much of evangelicalism
[b]
I believe fully in true ecumenism, but not false ecumenism. We could go into volumes on this subject; but it is my passion. Lets talk more if you want[[/b]

Honestly I ask Catholics what is the difference all the time, there really isnt one.

You know Ive been online for several years now and have watched for myself how the ecumenism has led Catholics to universalism more and more. It has accelerated in fact. acoupl;e years ago I would have a few Catholics [not just Trads] agree with me about interfaithism. They either all left or someting because now, Allah of iSlam, buddha nd the rest are all seen as "God" or archetypes there of.
[b]
We all interpret from something. Now, this alone shows need to have a proper source of interpretation. A church that extends from the apostles and is bound by the writings and teaching of those apostles is the logical source.
[/b]
I read what scripture says and if I have a question I let scripture interpet scripture. Even the Bereans in the book of Acts, EXAMINED THE APOSTLES themselves to see if these things were so. Rome doesnt teach that attitude. You have a Bible in English, The Roman attitude that only experts can understand scripture is false. in fact most of Catholic interpetation is DENIAL. Such as "call no man father", Catholics will give endless reasons to me why that really doesnt say or mean what it says directly. I believe it is a mindgame that Satan has foisted upon people.

You may very well love scripture but if you read it only through the Catholic lense, it will be chained away from your heart. Remember I came out of the Catholic Church reading a catholic Bible, there was enough in there to come to salvation, [book of Romans and Hebrews with gospels]

{Ill answer rest tommorow because I gotta go right now...}

Edited March 8, 2007 by Budge

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I will await your reply before I post. thanks budge

[theculturewarrior]

I would caution you to refrain from labeling religions as satanic so loosely. That could be a pretty big sin, if done wrecklessly. (The pharisees accused Jesus of satanism).

Edited March 8, 2007 by theculturewarrior

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Did I do that? Could you quote please

[theculturewarrior]

I was talking about Budge.. Rather than quote, let your finger fall somewhere at random in one of her threads.

[Budge]

Sorry culturewarrior but I beleive false religions are based in Satan's delusions. Remember I do not see the people as satanic but victims of lies.
[b]
translate this for me please. My understanding is everyone is going to process scripture. They are going to see scripture from the lens of what they see. The key is to find which is the right lens. I have formal training in the stone-cambell movement and objective scripture exegesis does not exist. The fact is you intrepret based on something[/b]

Was that your branch of evangelicalism you were involved with, stone campbellism? So wonder you ended up Catholic, they definitely have errors even regarding baptism and teach false things like they are the one true church. Honestly it is a cult, that does not teach true evangelical Biblical truths. I meet people all the time who ended up in Rome, via false other cults that do not preach the true gospel.

Even Mark Shea, catholic apologist who makes a big deal of his evangelical past, was in a false campus cult that preached the second coming was allegorical. On my other board, we have a person from that movement and he loves ECFs and preaches one needs to be baptized to be saved {ie power in the water rather then salvation via faith} I have told him while he is against Catholicism, his church "Church of Christ" has retained endless Catholic errors including dependence on the descendant false teachers linked to Constantine.
[b]
But dont try and tell me that I dont love scripture. Scripture is read more in catholic mass than it is in a protestant lecture by far.[/b]

You may very well love scripture. However scripture in Catholicism is not at the same level of authority as it is for Bible Christians. For me it is the authority while Roman Catholics add their traditions and Magisterium. That is right in the CCC, where it says even that scripture cannot stand alone without the two others. Right there I part ways most definitely.

As for the Catholic mass, on my message board, we have proven that scripture is edited at Mass, to leave out parts that may get too many questions started on behalf of the laity. Where sentences are cut out, even just one or two in the middle of a paragraph.
[b]

In Ut Unum Sint it is spoken of sacred scripture as the highest authority in manners of faith, but also of sacred tradition which is indispensable to the interpretation of the Word of God.(79) Even better, in speaking about protestant and catholic understanding of scripture it says
[/b]

The Sacred Tradition is where Rome goes wrong! Now you know Jesus warned agianst false traditions and I believe that applies definitely to Rome.
[b]
Interesting that the "pastors" are good, and the "priests" are bad, when in reality it is dependant on the person.[/b]

Sure, remember I apply the standards I hold, to prot and Christian pastors so if they are preaching false things, I do stand against it. Rick Warren, Benny Hinn, Campolo, TBN's prosperity gospel line-up. Prot interfaithers.....I have seen bad pastors even in my own type of church since moving, and refused to put myself under the tutelage of one {was same type of church I was in back in my old town} who preached false doctrine right from the pulpit. Catholics seem to accept BAD pastors...especially when it comes to their bishops and Cardinals who really are of poor quality considering one can find a new insane action almost daily. The priests in the trenches, sure some of them are good guys, but Im sure they suffer under this false leadership as well. While a Christian can depart from a false preacher..ie I moved and went to a church here that was same type of church I attended before heard false preaching at the church here and would not follow a false preacher. What is the message for Catholics but to remain under false preachers. That I believe is one of most insidious problems within Catholicism.

[b]
I have had good pastors, I am trained as a pastor so I have numerous friends still who are active pastors. I also know of many bad pastors. Same with priests, there are some good ones and some bad ones. [/b]

Sure but remember the good guys, whistleblowers and more, are being treated like dirt under bishops that care more about power, money and the Lavender Mafia.

[b]The big difference is in a protestant eccesiology you are dependant on the pastor. He is the focus on the service, his lectures are the service and the church takes direction from him[[/b]

Nope.

Consider having recently moved I did not put myself under the authority of a false pastor. Christians in a real vibrant Christian church that sticks to scripture, holds their pastors accountable. My last church was run by the people themselves voting on matters. Deacons and more. It is not the structure of Catholicism where anything the bishop says goes, to the point they can literally wrench churches away from people and shut them down and they have no recourse.

[b]In catholicism the mass does not focus on the priest. It focuses on Christ in the Eucharist.[/b]

Which is idolatry. I have asked Catholics this question before, where does it say in the Bible, that one needs a MASS or Eucharist to "APPLY" what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you?

I believe the Mass actually dishonors Jesus Christ, keeps Him on the cross forever even though the Bible says Jesus dieth no more...[Catholics usually give me the whole weird time and space explanation then]

I believe it is one of Satan's masterpieces, and basically says what Jesus did on the cross is insufficient, we must do this ritual over and over, to gain God's grace.
[b]

it focuses on the community in the liturgy[/b].

Actually I found community very lacking in the Catholic Church. While you may make some friends, there is no notion of a church family. Catholic churches are huge and impersonal, this can be a problem of course in Prot megachurches or mainliners. I believe that my last church was far far closer to the book of Acts in how they lived the Christian life. Helping other members and more. No church member went on welfare in my church--ie they would be helped with food, light bill and more if it came to that. When I moved even I had church members--several in fact at my home HELPING. Even to think of the Christian love in that church can bring me to tears of happiness. It truly was a blessing to be in that church, and for God to have led me there, right after I was saved.

Some rituals do not make for community. Online here Catholics are appalled even to have to shake hands at Mass, nonetheless be truly united in Christian felllowship having weekly dinners and invovled in each other's lives.

[b]
So, in essence you could replace a priest with another priest or go to any catholic church and it will be the same worship. of course this does not always happen since there are some bad priests, but that is simply a human thing. Not a protestant/catholic issue.[/b]

Actually the sameness is not a good thing. It is rote ritual, I used to wonder if God got bored hearing the same exact prayers at Mass every sunday after sunday? I believe this is more coporate ease, make everything the same, its less complicated that way. Priests dont really have to work at any Biblical study to write homilies which are usually an average of 8 minutes like a Christian pastor who is led by God to teach from the Word something that will apply to people's lives.

Catholics always get angry tht someone would say the Mass is boring. Some claim you want to be entertained. Nope that has nothing to do with it. Jesus preached against vain repetitions for a reason.

[b]I would need to complety disagree with you here ma'am on how you take purgatory. Purgatory is where we finish the sanctification process. Where we are finishing our cleaning off so we can enter heaven.[/b]


Dont want to shock you, but I believe Purgatory is another word for HELL.

burning fire, suffering beyond that of earths, seperation from God...[why wouldnt Satan have the power to lie and tell some folks not under God's protection, one day youll get out?]

I have cried pondering this because many of my relatives died, to have the family say, well they are probably in Purgatory.

Why does a Christian need cleansed in Purgatory...[Christ's blood couldnt finish the job?}

That too is a diminishment and affront to Jesus Christ.

Scripture DIRECTLY preaches against Purgatory...

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, [u]when he had by himself purged our sins,[/u] sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - HEBREWS 1:1-3

BY HIMSELF, does not mean with the help of Purgatory.

I feel sorry for Catholics who on their deathbeds only have this to look forward to. The pain and terror for a Catholic upon death surely must be so much greater. I as a Christian can look forward to going home right into the arms of God. What does a Catholic look forward to but more pain and misery.

Purgatory, is against God's love, and even against the Biblical promise in Hebrews 13:5
[b]

. We start that the moment we start faith, we continue it all through our lives, but it is not finished when we die. In purgatory we are already assured salvation. We just need to clean our feet before we step into the house.[/b]



Christians go to heaven NOT based on their own righteousness but that of Christ's.


[b]So I disgree with you. I say the God of calvinism is the cold non-loving God. I dont know how much you come from the calvinistic perspective, but that is a God not of love.[/b]

I am not a Calvinist.

In fact I see Calvinism as a daughter of Rome.

Read Dave Hunt's WHAT LOVE IS THIS? to understand where I am coming from there.
[quote]I think you are speaking of redemptive suffering here as well. Do you believe that suffering does not help us in the process? What about the martyrs? What about the asecetics? What about the sufferng Christ experienced himself?[/quote]

One is either dependent on Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross for salvation or they believe they can save themselves via their own sufferings.

The Catholic love of suffering is worrisome. While a Christian may have to suffer for the sake of gospel or for others, the idea of needless suffering--putting stones in your shoes, whipping yourself etc, s totally WRONG and Satanic.

[b]We are not working our way into heaven[/b].

Arent sacraments works? Isnt the fact the Catholic can 'suffer" for his salvation based on works. Even the idea of Co-Redeemers is based on works rather then on the finished work of the cross.
[b]
Are you telling me it is bad to feed the poor? Are you telling me it is against the scripture?[/b]

Nope those are good things, but unless one is doing them led by God for HIs glory alone, they are merely ways people seek their own self-glory.

In fact many religious unsaved people believe they will be saved by their own goods works. They ignore the fact the Bible teaches this.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

When I was an unsaved UU, I pursued a very altruistic career, while I "helped" people this was not for the glory of God but my own prideful reasons.

People can use even works of charity for their own pride and those who believe they are closer to salvation or can earn their way to salvation definitely have ignored the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[b]
Aligning our will with that of the divine is a strong gospel message, a sanctifying thing. Now, in your soteriological model this does not matter, but I would strongly argue that you have a cheap grace, even by evangelical standards. pitting works against faith is a false dichotomy. they naturally go together. they are two sides of the same coin. faith w/o works is dead.[/b]

The Works come out of the faith.

Not the other way around.

[b]
Eternal security is not in the gospel, you wont find it in romans, hebrews, or James. You also display a very poor knowledge of catholic soteriology here.[/b]

Eternal security is not an excuse to sin over and over as many Catholics claim it is.

If one s a saved Christian, the Holy Spirit will deal with your sin. [again here is the issue of confusion between Justification and Sanctification.


[b]

1 sin does not toss you overboard[/b].

Does not ONE mortal sin for a Catholic, that fits all the parameters...enough to send a Catholic to hell?

[b]
The concept of cheap grace and sin no longer being an issue would have been laughed at by every church father. It is just a cheap grace. You are not saved by a one moment decision if there is no change in your life. [/b]

If there was no change in your life, then you have not become a new creature in Chirst and you were not saved to begin with.

There ARE FALSE CONVERSIONS.

Will not argue with you there, and one sinners prayer wont cut it, if the inside change hasnt taken place.

[b]
I would argue, in the proper pauline sense that you do not have the proper notion of adoption. We can talk about this further and I would appreciate that.[/b]

We can do another thread on that.
[b]
Assuming Catholic's do not trust God just does not make sense in any way. We might need to flesh this out a bit. Like what is the avenue we have to overcome sin? why doens't sin toss us overboard? what is the catholic position that is opposed to a one-moment decision? what is the proper way to understand adoption? Proof that catholics do in fact trust in God? where is this shown in our teaching? etc. just let me know[/b]

The Catholic approach to God is wrong.

All focused on works, and sacraments and ritual and rite, with very little notion of love, or trust, that God will take care of them or lead them to righteousness.

Everything is focused on their OWN efforts!

[b]

alive-dead, jargon depending on what your standards are. For a "new" protestant church to re-pen the sheep from a neighboring protestant church does not make it alive. What do you consider to be real christian fellowship? [/b]

Just so you know Roman Catholicism does not hold the monopoly on dead, false churches.

Real Christian fellowship is what I experienced in my last church, love in Jesus Christ, brothers and sisters together for each others edification and comfort. This goes way beyond just shaking hands one hour on Sunday mornings at Mass or Mainline Prot service. Churches are to be based on the book of Acts.

[b]
Again, this can be from church to church, but I have experienced that sense of community in both protestant and catholic communities.[/b]

I had friends in my last catholic church, so had community in that way, but the community of a Christian fellowship is something different.

In fact while still Catholic I dont think I could even imagine what true Christian fellowship was like. God will even lead other Christians to be there in ways, one could never imagine, and I know I learned what true love and service was like. {I have missed my church family lately very badly but God moved me here, so I know surely He has a purpose for me here}
[b]

I do not see the issue here. If Mass seemed dead to you, then you were not in love with the eucharist[/b].

I dont want to offend you but really how can ANYONE be in LOVE with a piece of bread?

The Catholic Eucharist led me to be an atheist by a very young age. [age 10] where I looked at the wafer sitting there while at a Perpetual Adoration with nuns and my classmtes and thought thats God? Im supposed to think that is "god"?! Nonsense! I wonder how many other little kids think the same thing now. The circle wafer--ie based on shape of sun in the MONSTRANCE, which by the way has a symbol for the moon {look up LUNA and Monstrance} and sun is based in IDOLATRY.

When I came to Jesus Christ, at a late age, being saved in Him, then I learned what Love truly was, and I realized who God truly was. He was not a piece of bread.

Christians receive Christ via faith. They are born again, with the HOly Spirit indwelling, and enter into a true relationship with Him.

Catholics receive 'christ" via carnal eating and with continued fill-ups.

How do you love a piece of bread?
[b]

The mass is very alive for every catholic in love with the eucharist.I mean IN LOVE, more than if it were a beautiful woman.[/b]

And that worries me.

I believe that the false Eucharist leads people away from Jesus Christ and leads them to worship an inanimate object made of flour and water.

Jesus preached that whatever entered the mouth entered into the draught, what does that mean to you? That tells me His Words were spriitual.

Why do Catholics think that LOVE, is EATING someone? do spouses lop off a finger to have a cannibalistic fest to show their LOVE?

EATING has spiritual meanings in the Bible, Catholics simply do not understand. When one EATS the WORD, they make it part of themselves!
[b]

For me I know how "alive" I am when I am with my wife. now, imagine feeling that same love for the Eucharist. you would not be able to help but feel alive then too. Scott Hahn writes some great books on liturgy that could be of service.[/b]

I am with Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit all the time.

I do not need to go to a Catholic church for fill-ups. He is available to me always.

I have read Scott Hahn, in fact his books helped me decide to leave especially the Lamp's Supper which I read in the weeks before I left alongside the Bible.

[b]. remember, a personal relationship with Christ is in our catechism, and has been in our church since the first martyr[/b]

When are Catholics taught they must be born again?

I went to Catholic school for almost 10 years, I know I wasnt.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[b]
If you are speaking about protestant services and the 30min lecture from a pastor I would challenge that many pastors are simply guru's with a bible promoting their own view and sprinkling scripture to help. I dont see how catholicism is lacking in life directional teaching.[/b]

Thats better at least then a priest doing a sermon based on philosophy and politics.


[b]cool. I agree, but who is teaching you? Scripture is a great and blessed sacred thing. Are you hinting that I do not have the grace to learn from the book my Church put together and protected?[/b]

The Holy Spirit is teaching me.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Why do Catholics believe this only applies to their special experts?
[b]
Seeing you and your life change via the Holy Spirit.

Careful, sounds like works. But I agree. Are you saying I lack this? I asked what am I lacking
[/b]

What do you believe changes you?

Instead of sanctifcation via the Holy Spirit...[once saved a Christian is already justified] a Catholic believes they seek their own sanctification and "earn" this via sacraments.

[b]Rituals and rites have their place; to not understand this is to not see their depth and ability[/b].

Actually they destroy a true relationship with God.

Why do people have to have a script with God?

You talk in your own words do you not with your spouse?

Why not have a real relationship with your FIRST LOVE?

[b]How am I lacking this? How does protestantism have this and catholicism does not? No offense, even an islamic can say their prayers were answered. Mormanism was founded on an answered prayer[/b]

Well given that Catholics more and more preach that the prayers of false religions are going to God, instead of Demons, as the Bible teaches, that alone is one avenue of Catholic deception.

Did God answer the prayers to Baal in the book of Ezkiel?

[b]

Am I lacking this? Exactly what are you being protected of may I ask? If you are saved right away and it is a done process then what does anything else matter?this isn't a protestant-catholic issue either. anyone can be plagued by demonic forces, including protestants. catholics have plenty of protection: in the mass, the sacraments, the angels, our blessed mother[/b]

when one is born again, they have discernment.

Actually demonic forces have no power over a born again Christian who can rebuke evil spirits in Jesus's name.
I have noticed some here seem literally plagued with no power over these spirits. On my message board, many of the Catholics have spoken of false spirits showing up in their homes, visions of dead people and more, which is an area of concern given they are having literal physical manifestations.

Prayers to mary, and Marianism seems to be one huge avenue that demons enter Catholics lives. I should do a thread on this, this was one thing many of these Catholics on my board, who have actual physical manifestations hold in common.

I do not believe the Mass or sacraments protect, but actually open one up, but that would take its own thread.


[b]Hence why your move is tough.[/b]

My faith is not dependent on church membership, and I am still united to my old church family in Christ.
[b]
Sounds like you had a great situation. But this is variable from church to church. just b/c you never felt fellowship when you were a Catholic, that doesn't mean that fellowship does not exist. some parishes are better at this than others, but fellowship can be had.[/b]

Catholics themselves admit fellowship is lacking in their churches. I have writings from priests who even say the same thing. Ralph Martin wrote an essay in 1991 pointing out, that the evangelicals are doing something right and we [Catholics] are not.
[b]
I dont think that God will abandon me, I think i can reject him, but he will always be there waiting for me to come back. What am I lacking here? we too believe that God will not abandon us. however, we also believe that we can abandon God.[/b]

In Purgatory you are seperated from God are you not?
[b]
Considering that protestantism is in itself the child of relativism, and the average protestant church is focused on marketing a country club type community, I feel you would be more on my side of the battle here. You should listen to Peter Kreeft and his audio lecture on the battle against the culture war[/b]

Actually many prots {by the way i beleive Protestantism as a whole is following Roman Catholicism into apostasty, especially the daughters} make the mistake of fighting culture rather then preaching the gospel and leading invidiuals to becoming new creatures in Christ. Im going to post that peter kreeft thread for you.

[b]
. In my understanding protestantism waters down far more than catholicism.there is a legitimate way to be ecumenical and the Church has never taught that the way to do this is by watering down the Gospel. all she has to do is read the decree on ecumenism from Vatican II
[/b]

Vatican II teaches Allah of Islam is God.

If thats not watering down I do not know what is.

[b]
Having God to depend on no matter how hard life gets and always having a core joy in Christ no matter how bad things get.

How am I lacking this?[/b]

By believing in the Catholic wafer.

I believe you truly seek after God. You seem to have an open heart, and are searching.

But you are looking in the wrong place.


[b]anytime. You remind me of my mom in many ways.[/b]

I probably am around her age...

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your response is 12 pages on WORD, give me some time to get back to you, but I will. Thank you budge

Could I request that this thread stays between Budge and I?

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Ma'am,

Im still working on your response. I should be done with it tommorow. Thank you for the patience.

[Mary-Kathryn]

At least Budge it's not about YOU having heart trouble. That was my first thought when I read the thread title.

Glad to know I was wrong

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Ma'am,

I have 3 more pages of your response to work through, I have finished the first 9. Thanks for being patient

[Budge]

Ok thanks...

When youre done post it:)

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1210481' date='Mar 8 2007, 06:34 PM']your response is 12 pages on WORD, give me some time to get back to you, but I will. Thank you budge

Could I request that this thread stays between Budge and I?[/quote]
Copy the post you are responding to and start a new thread please.

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Start a new thread for Just Budge and I?

Budge, I will link back to this and post mine hopefully tommorow. If not, promise saturday

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new thread up

[zdog042]

Hello all, it looked like this post needed another protestant hand in it.

I was copying/pasting into a notepad document, but my computer restarted and I had not saved, so I will just write from memory and the heart. Ironic given the name of the thread, no?

Budge, I am sorry that you were not receptive to the teaching of the Eucharist. To see the wafer at the age of 10 and not be able to understand the abstract thought that went into the teaching of the Eucharist would lead many people astray. However, because you, along with most brains at the age of 10, were not able to think abstractly in this way does not mean that it is wrong. The bible is not only a base level teaching which can be understood by 10 year olds. There is incredible honesty with a child, but they are not up to teaching everything. I advise that you go back to the teachings, pray, study, and see what you come up with. If you come up with a negative answer again, that is ok with me, at least you have tried with a prayerfully open.

Second, if the teaching about the Eucharist is true, then it is not idolatry. I am sorry that the way you learned it, it was protrayed that way. I see it in this way; Icons are a great help to me in my prayer life. To view pictures of the saints/martyrs, to see pictures and maps of Israel greatly benefit my prayer life. However, they are an incredible hinderance to my wife. To see a picture of the people and places makes it almost impossible for her to pray. There are multiple ways to express the doctrine of the Eucharist and you were taught in a way that you would immediately reject it (from what I understand based on your posts). Again I say, if the teaching of the Eucharist is true, then it is not idolatry.

Third, It is my understanding that through the mass, every verse of scripture is read over a three-year period of time. To the best of my knowledge, nothing is ommitted. Here is an important point though, there are verse differences between a catholic and protestant bible. The wording is the same, but when you compare some versions, the numbering is a bit different depending on which text the translation came from. This is especially common in books such as Psalms, Esther, etc. I don't know if you already took that into consideration, but that might be something for you to make sure that your study on scripture in the mass covered. Also, if I am correct or wrong, please let me know all Catholics on here.

Fourth, the Bereans examined the apostles. True. However, more frequently in the bible, Paul is saying "stop doing that" to the churches. It goes both ways. You can not question the authority if there is no authority to question. Sorry if I come off harsh on this one, but what you said has no point. They questioned the authority because the authority was there. Without it being in place and being recognized by all, there would have been no reason for them to examine the apostles.

Fifth, I was raised in a Cambellite church. I actually agree with most of your comments, except the cult one. That is because, when I use the word cult, I believe that it is no longer a part of Christianity at all and is on the wrong path. I can not say that the people inside and following the teaching of the Church of Christ/Christian churches are not christian anymore, so I can't call the system a cult. But, they have bankrupted a lot of christian faith and teaching, especially with their "we'll have unity as soon as everybody believes what I believe!" statements. I now attend and am interning at an Assembly of God church, so my spiritual journey has been very eclectic.

Sixth, as far as I know, the teachings of the Catholic church are based in the bible, and the base beliefs can not exist without biblical support. So, I don't know where you see the beliefs being completely unbiblical, because their roots are in the bible.

Seventh, it seems like you have a big thing against works saving you. I am very glad. So are the Catholics. Catholics agree with this. There is a document between the catholic and lutheran churches where they both agree with Salvation by faith alone. However, Catholics agree with natural law, that what you do shapes who you are. This is sanctification. If you do good works, it helps your faith as you see a return coming from it. As your faith grows, so do your works, and then faith, and then works, etc. So, "taking the wafer" is not something that is merely done to assure salvation, but it is to recieve the grace which God pours out through the sacrament to aid in the journey of christianity. Within Catholic study, this is the most significant way to recieve God's grace, as you are physically digesting a wafer which grace, as you are physically digesting a wafer which is God. I do not have the knowledge to speak authoratatively on this, so I will stop here.

Eigth, from Protestant to protestant, if you are so negative on your current church, why do you stay there? Find another church where you can bless others and they can bless you.

Two years signed up on phatmass, and I think I have yet to hit 25 posts. It takes a bit to target me on something to post on, but if I see my catholic brothers being called satanists (which they would be if their church is of satan and not from God), I have to jump to their rescue. I've seen the problems satanism causes, and that is not within the mass or the catholic faith.