Heart Trouble

[Budge]

[color="#FF0000"]We do not link to anti-catholic sites for any reason - ever.[/color]

Edited March 7, 2007 by cmotherofpirl
anti-catholic link

[thessalonian]

Don't bother. it's chick biggotry at it's finest. Low class budge. Very low class.

[Budge]

Why whats wrong with it?

It presents the gospel...nothing mentioned about the Catholic Church whatsoever.

[N/A Gone]

AP:

Budge, an all new low.

Are you seriously promoting a chick idea? I am really not impressed

[Budge]

Why was the link removed, it mentioned NOTHING about the Catholic church.

[N/A Gone]

Budge let me ask you something..

1.) What exactly is my faith lacking for you. (dont use sargon, just tell me in simple real terms)

2.) What would I gain from leaving the catholic church and following your epistemology

I am seriously wondering. Please dont cut-paste. I want to know your words

[Budge]

[quote] Budge let me ask you something..

1.) [b]What exactly is my faith lacking for you[/b]. (dont use sargon, just tell me in simple real terms)[/quote]

Salvation in the majority of cases--dont know where youre at personally but......Catholicism is another gospel]

True love and relationship with God [wafer didnt cut it for me]
Realizing who God truly is via HIs Word and via the Holy Spirit indwelling.

Strong Christianity that makes concrete stands and holds to a definitive line instead being replaced by Sold out Christianity--not just Catholic guilty but plenty of Prots--ecumenicalism [Any religion will do] and anything is acceptance, everything is watered down so even things that were known as occultic or New Age 20 years ago have been eased in. {There is no way I think a snake avatar would have been acceptable even for Catholics 25 years ago}

Belief and true Love of Gods Word, knowing its immense blessings and truth...instead being replaced by Rejection of Gods Word as foundation of faith, with additions and substractions and the wisdom of men being held up as high.

Good humble preachers and pastors who are held accountable to Gods word. God bless my last pastor, how I miss my last church family! {I had to move due to other factors} and instead being taught to follow wicked men {I believe millions are being led to the antichrist] Popes, priests and false Prot. ministers who barely believe anything themselves and teach falsehoods and who have no accountability.

Love from God, instead I believe Catholicism and false Protestantism is RIFE with coldness {god of Catholicism is cold, no love, purgatory is evil and horrible, dark silence, and meanness --SUFFER FOR SALVATION false messages, via false religiom}

True salvation...intead you are taught Works based salvation instead of the gift of salvation...which for any true Christian brings abiding gratefulness and love...Working ones way to heaven stinks. {I feel sorry for anyone stuck in that mode}

Eternal Security being changed for total insecurity...no trust in God, given one sin is enough to get you tossed over board. Thinking youre going to get in based on your own works and recognizance. No notion of becoming an adopted child of God.

Alive, loving churches, instead being replaced by Dead churches--Im including Prot ones, where there is no such thing as real Christian fellowship. I had to move away from a beloved church family, most Catholics have not been blessed with that. That is someting huge that many are missing out on.


[quote]2.) What would I gain from leaving the catholic church and following your epistemology[/quote]

Relationship with Jesus Christ, that is based in truth

Love for Gods Word, and learning to direct your life by it.

Learning from Gods Word, I have been blessed by so much via Gods Word in even learning and more.

Seeing you and your life change via the Holy Spirit.

Prayer life, that is not based on rituals and rites, but getting to know God, daily and walking with Him.

Answered prayers for others and you. God has answered many a DIRECT prayer for me.

Gods protection...{some here seem literally plagued by dark demonic forces}

Having God in charge of your life.

Good Christian fellowship, knowing the love and support of other bleievers, be this in home church to beloved church family like I had for years before I had to move.

Knowing where you are going when you die.

Knowing God will never abandon you. {Hebrews 13:5}

Seperating from the world's wickedness and false values that lead to destruction.

Seperating from interfaithism, the road to the antichrist, and compromise.

Having God to depend on no matter how hard life gets and always having a core joy in Christ no matter how bad things get.

Thanks for asking.

[theculturewarrior]

Most of these things I already have as a Catholic. The rest I don't want. (I kind of like it when religious leaders preach against using religion as a pretext for hostility).

[Budge]

[quote]

Most of these things I already have as a Catholic. [b]The rest I don't want[/b]. (I kind of like it when religious leaders preach against using religion as a pretext for hostility).[/quote]

[quote]The rest I don't want.[/quote]

What on the list dont you want?

{I dont support the Iraq war so dont even know how this applies to the conversation...dont assume all fundies are pro-war and Dominionist, I am NOT}

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]Prayer life, that is not based on rituals and rites, but getting to know God, daily and walking with Him.[/quote]

^This is what you have that I don't want. I learned how to pray spontaneously by reading the prayers of the Saints and using their liturgies and "recitations." I can definitely testify that non-Catholics [b]do not[/b] have a monopoly on answered prayers, and I prefer to view prayers as a discipline above and beyond the "Toastmasters'" variety. God has worked so many miracles for me through formal, disciplined prayer, that I do not want to improvise only.

I also like the idea of inter-faith dialogue. The Catholic Church has [b]never[/b] compromised the teachings of Christ, but has worked to promote peace. [i]Blessed are the peacemakers...[/i] Just for the record, I am with Pope John Paul the Second on keeping hostility out of religion.

[Budge]

[quote]
^This is what you have that I don't want. I learned how to pray spontaneously by reading the prayers of the Saints and using their liturgies and "recitations." I can definitely testify that non-Catholics do not have a monopoly on answered prayers, and I prefer to view prayers as a discipline above and beyond the "Toastmasters'" variety. God has worked so many miracles for me through formal, disciplined prayer, that I do not want to improvise only.[/quote]Toastmasters? Can you talk to God in your OWN Words and not in someone else's script? Dont you think GOd would want You to talk to Him in your own words? Considering the nature of God, why would God want to hear the same prayers coming from everyone? I know Id be bored to death even being Mary hearing Hail Mary a zillion times over and over [if she could actually hear that prayer]
[quote]
I also like the idea of inter-faith dialogue. The Catholic Church has never compromised the teachings of Christ, but has worked to promote peace. Blessed are the peacemakers... Just for the record, I am with Pope John Paul the Second on keeping hostility out of religion.[/quote]

The Catholic church has never compromised the teachings of Christ, you sure about that?

[img]http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/images/0704desec/fp1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/FatimaPix/HindFtm09.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0410ze.jpg[/img]

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209931' date='Mar 7 2007, 04:04 PM']Toastmasters? Can you talk to God in your OWN Words and not in someone else's script? Dont you think GOd would want You to talk to Him in your own words? Considering the nature of God, why would God want to hear the same prayers coming from everyone? I know Id be bored to death even being Mary hearing Hail Mary a zillion times over and over [if she could actually hear that prayer]
The Catholic church has never compromised the teachings of Christ, you sure about that?

[img]http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/images/0704desec/fp1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/FatimaPix/HindFtm09.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0410ze.jpg[/img][/quote]

Yes I can talk to God in my own words, but sometimes, somebody before me said what I want to say way better than I could myself, the foremost being the psalmist, King David.

Yes I am sure the Church has never compromised the teachings of Christ. It is the same faith when those pictures were taken as it was when the Holy Spirit descended upon the Apostles.

[N/A Gone]

Budge, (apparently I can only quote so much, so you are in red)

Im gonna do my best to go through your list.


[color="#FF0000"][Salvation in the majority of cases--dont know where youre at personally but......Catholicism is another gospel][/color]

I would disagree with the idea that Catholicism is "another gospel" being that the best christian minds of all time have all had amazingly strong catholic concepts that even an anti-catholic would have problems getting around. I will say it in plain language. It is impossible to do soteriology for augustine with the eucharist. I am an expert on Augustine (Some would say the trinitarian debate) and I can attest that His theology was incredibly catholic. If not dependant on aspects of catholicism that you would consider not equal with the gospel. So the question becomes how is your interpretation of what the gospel is better than Augustine. I will avoid church history as a whole right now because that is overwhelming. But what makes your system better than augustine, and not just better but more accurate to clear exegesis.


[color="#FF0000"]True love and relationship with God [wafer didnt cut it for me][/color]

Why is it all about you? When I was younger I saw my mom and dad kiss and I didnt understand. At that stage I thought it was yucky. Does that mean that love, kissing and married "things" are not for me or not right? No, it means I did not understand. I consider fundamentalism to be based on being against catholicism. But the eucharist is essential to christian development. Fundamentalism has been effected strongly by Kant. But eucharist is a way at getting around Kant. There is also much, much, much more to catholicism than just the eucharist. What you would consider "true love and a relationship" is something I experienced in a genuine way as an evangelical, and that grew as a catholic. We could talk more about this indepth. But I do not see how catholicism lacks this. Evangelicals have a taste of this, but are missing parts and I feel that fulfillment of this is found in catholicism.


[color="#FF0000"]Realizing who God truly is via HIs Word and via the Holy Spirit indwelling.[/color]

That is what started alot of my conversion. Having a more mature understanding of patristic theology. In understanding the Christ as the eternal logos (word) and not just warm and fuzzy.

[color="#FF0000"]Strong Christianity that makes concrete stands and holds to a definitive line instead being replaced by Sold out Christianity--not just Catholic guilty but plenty of Prots--ecumenicalism [Any religion will do] and anything is acceptance, everything is watered down so even things that were known as occultic or New Age 20 years ago have been eased in. {There is no way I think a snake avatar would have been acceptable even for Catholics 25 years ago}[/color]

I believe a moral stance is incredibly important. The issue of birth control alone is a great example, in the 60's nobody would have considered it. But the majority of protestant churches have bent and broke on this issue and many others. "Born Fundamentalist, Born Evangelicals" by Dave Currie devoits an entire chapter to this point. Catholicism has a strong foundation of morality. Individual people will have individual interpretations of certain things regardless if you are catholic, protestant or Agnostic. The point of the matter is we know that abortion is wrong, we know that birth control i wrong, we have this in writing that we need to affirm to. What does the protestant community have that is better than catholicism here? I think it is awesome when you can get a good pastor or teacher that will enforce these. But that is case sensitve from church to church. And individual to individual. If someone wants to claim to be catholic and then be a hooker then they are not following the teaching of the church. But we have the church for a foundation.

I do agree with you against luke-warm stance on issues. I have a friend who was replaced at an ELC lutheran church because he taught it was a sin to lie. To quote Peter kreeft "we live in a society where the eternal logos has been replaced with a warm and fuzzy"

I believe fully in true ecumenism, but not false ecumenism. We could go into volumes on this subject; but it is my passion. Lets talk more if you want

[color="#FF0000"]Belief and true Love of Gods Word, knowing its immense blessings and truth...instead being replaced by Rejection of Gods Word as foundation of faith, with additions and substractions and the wisdom of men being held up as high.[/color]

translate this for me please. My understanding is everyone is going to process scripture. They are going to see scripture from the lens of what they see. The key is to find which is the right lens. I have formal training in the stone-cambell movement and objective scripture exegesis does not exist. The fact is you intrepret based on something. Whether it is your own worldview, or the view of your pastor. We all interpret from something. Now, this alone shows need to have a proper source of interpretation. A church that extends from the apostles and is bound by the writings and teaching of those apostles is the logical source.

But dont try and tell me that I dont love scripture. Scripture is read more in catholic mass than it is in a protestant lecture by far. I still read my bible just as much as I did as a protestant, and I teach from it as well. In Ut Unum Sint it is spoken of sacred scripture as the highest authority in manners of faith, but also of sacred tradition which is indispensable to the interpretation of the Word of God.(79) Even better, in speaking about protestant and catholic understanding of scripture it says

[quote][i]These brothers and sisters promote love and veneration for the Sacred Scriptures: "Calling upon the Holy Spirit, they seek in these Sacred Scriptures God as he speaks to them in Christ, the One whom the prophets foretold, God's Word made flesh for us. In the Scriptures they contemplate the life of Christ, as well as the teachings and the actions of the Divine Master on behalf of the salvation of all, in particular the mysteries of his Death and Resurrection ... They affirm the divine authority of the Sacred Books".115

At the same time, however, they "think differently from us ... about the relationship between the Scriptures and the Church. In the Church, according to Catholic belief, an authentic teaching office plays a special role in the explanation and proclamation of the written word of God".116 Even so, "in 1 dialogue itself, the sacred utterances are precious instruments in the mighty hand of God for attaining that unity which the Saviour holds out to all"[/[/i]quote]

You guys got "the love of scripture" from us. It is awesome.

[color="#FF0000"]Good humble preachers and pastors who are held accountable to Gods word. God bless my last pastor, how I miss my last church family! {I had to move due to other factors} and instead being taught to follow wicked men {I believe millions are being led to the antichrist] Popes, priests and false Prot. ministers who barely believe anything themselves and teach falsehoods and who have no accountability.[/color]

Interesting that the "pastors" are good, and the "priests" are bad, when in reality it is dependant on the person. I have had good pastors, I am trained as a pastor so I have numerous friends still who are active pastors. I also know of many bad pastors. Same with priests, there are some good ones and some bad ones. The big difference is in a protestant eccesiology you are dependant on the pastor. He is the focus on the service, his lectures are the service and the church takes direction from him. In catholicism the mass does not focus on the priest. It focuses on Christ in the Eucharist. it focuses on the community in the liturgy. So, in essence you could replace a priest with another priest or go to any catholic church and it will be the same worship. of course this does not always happen since there are some bad priests, but that is simply a human thing. Not a protestant/catholic issue.

[color="#FF0000"]Love from God, instead I believe Catholicism and false Protestantism is RIFE with coldness {god of Catholicism is cold, no love, purgatory is evil and horrible, dark silence, and meanness --SUFFER FOR SALVATION false messages, via false religiom}[/color]

I would need to complety disagree with you here ma'am on how you take purgatory. Purgatory is where we finish the sanctification process. Where we are finishing our cleaning off so we can enter heaven. CS lewis speaks of purgatory alot because in any non-calvinistic soteriological model you have sanctificational development. That sanctification needs to finish before you enter heaven. We start that the moment we start faith, we continue it all through our lives, but it is not finished when we die. In purgatory we are already assured salvation. We just need to clean our feet before we step into the house.
We can discuss this from scripture a bit if you want, from one bible thumper to another I have a respect for that.,

this might help too

[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ449.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ449.HTM[/url]

or

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/629"]http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/629[/url]

So I disgree with you. I say the God of calvinism is the cold non-loving God. I dont know how much you come from the calvinistic perspective, but that is a God not of love. In true love there is freedom, there is risk. God allows us that in order that we respond to it legit and in the freedom of our will. The calvin God does not have that. We are merely playing our a predestined role and being punished for what we have not determined. Certain souls are destined for hell regardless of what they do with their life.The catholic God is a God that desires all to be in relation with him, and gives so much in order for us to come to community with Him.

I think you are speaking of redemptive suffering here as well. Do you believe that suffering does not help us in the process? What about the martyrs? What about the asecetics? What about the sufferng Christ experienced himself?

[color="#FF0000"]True salvation...intead you are taught Works based salvation instead of the gift of salvation...which for any true Christian brings abiding gratefulness and love...Working ones way to heaven stinks. {I feel sorry for anyone stuck in that mode}[/color]

We are not working our way into heaven. I dont know where you got this, but I would appreciate if you would read "Salvation Controversy" by James Akin (I will mail it to you ma'am, if you desire) Catholicism teaches true community, and in that we know works benefit the community in an actual sense, but also better ourselves in aligning us up with what it truely means to be human. Our will is battling against our fallen desires, and in "works" the will is making the body submit. Are you telling me it is bad to feed the poor? Are you telling me it is against the scripture? Aligning our will with that of the divine is a strong gospel message, a sanctifying thing. Now, in your soteriological model this does not matter, but I would strongly argue that you have a cheap grace, even by evangelical standards. pitting works against faith is a false dichotomy. they naturally go together. they are two sides of the same coin. faith w/o works is dead.

[color="#FF0000"]Eternal Security being changed for total insecurity...no trust in God, given one sin is enough to get you tossed over board. Thinking youre going to get in based on your own works and recognizance. No notion of becoming an adopted child of God.[/color]

Eternal security is not in the gospel, you wont find it in romans, hebrews, or James. You also display a very poor knowledge of catholic soteriology here. 1 sin does not toss you overboard. Sin is still an issue, and something we need to deal with, but now we have an avenue and a way to do it. The concept of cheap grace and sin no longer being an issue would have been laughed at by every church father. It is just a cheap grace. You are not saved by a one moment decision if there is no change in your life. I would argue, in the proper pauline sense that you do not have the proper notion of adoption. We can talk about this further and I would appreciate that. Assuming Catholic's do not trust God just does not make sense in any way. We might need to flesh this out a bit. Like what is the avenue we have to overcome sin? why doens't sin toss us overboard? what is the catholic position that is opposed to a one-moment decision? what is the proper way to understand adoption? Proof that catholics do in fact trust in God? where is this shown in our teaching? etc. just let me know

[color="#FF0000"]Alive, loving churches, instead being replaced by Dead churches--Im including Prot ones, where there is no such thing as real Christian fellowship. I had to move away from a beloved church family, most Catholics have not been blessed with that. That is someting huge that many are missing out on.[/color]


alive-dead, jargon depending on what your standards are. For a "new" protestant church to re-pen the sheep from a neighboring protestant church does not make it alive. What do you consider to be real christian fellowship? Again, this can be from church to church, but I have experienced that sense of community in both protestant and catholic communities. I do not see the issue here. If Mass seemed dead to you, then you were not in love with the eucharist. The mass is very alive for every catholic in love with the eucharist.I mean IN LOVE, more than if it were a beautiful woman. For me I know how "alive" I am when I am with my wife. now, imagine feeling that same love for the Eucharist. you would not be able to help but feel alive then too. Scott Hahn writes some great books on liturgy that could be of service.

[color="#FF0000"]Relationship with Jesus Christ, that is based in truth[/color]

jargon again, depending on what you define. Tell me how you have this and I do not. What is your truth that not only makes it different, but better. And lets not even use relative terms. What makes your truth right, and mine wrong. remember, a personal relationship with Christ is in our catechism, and has been in our church since the first martyr

[color="#FF0000"]Love for Gods Word, and learning to direct your life by it.[/color]

We touched on this some above, but I dont see my catholic faith lacking anything here that protestantism could develop. If you are speaking about protestant services and the 30min lecture from a pastor I would challenge that many pastors are simply guru's with a bible promoting their own view and sprinkling scripture to help. I dont see how catholicism is lacking in life directional teaching. You should read

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_council...-verbum_en.html[/url]

[color="#FF0000"]Learning from Gods Word, I have been blessed by so much via Gods Word in even learning and more.[/color]

cool. I agree, but who is teaching you? Scripture is a great and blessed sacred thing. Are you hinting that I do not have the grace to learn from the book my Church put together and protected?
[color="#FF0000"]
Seeing you and your life change via the Holy Spirit.[/color]

Careful, sounds like works. But I agree. Are you saying I lack this? I asked what am I lacking

[color="#FF0000"]Prayer life, that is not based on rituals and rites, but getting to know God, daily and walking with Him.[/color]

Rituals and rites have their place; to not understand this is to not see their depth and ability. But they are a tool, not the substance itself. They are the railing, but you still need to walk the stairs. Is it possible to be ritualitic and not have faith? yea, but the same person is going to sit like a lump in a protestant service. The actions help, but the person needs a walk with God in order to make them matter. Just because we ask the saints to pray for us, does not mean we do not pray directly to the divine

[color="#FF0000"]Answered prayers for others and you. God has answered many a DIRECT prayer for me.[/color]

How am I lacking this? How does protestantism have this and catholicism does not? No offense, even an islamic can say their prayers were answered. Mormanism was founded on an answered prayer

[color="#FF0000"]Gods protection...{some here seem literally plagued by dark demonic forces}[/color]

Am I lacking this? Exactly what are you being protected of may I ask? If you are saved right away and it is a done process then what does anything else matter?this isn't a protestant-catholic issue either. anyone can be plagued by demonic forces, including protestants. catholics have plenty of protection: in the mass, the sacraments, the angels, our blessed mother

[color="#FF0000"]Having God in charge of your life. [/color]

how am I lacking this. Please be more specific and avoid open jargon. The idea that catholics dont have God in their life is silly

[color="#FF0000"]Good Christian fellowship, knowing the love and support of other bleievers, be this in home church to beloved church family like I had for years before I had to move.[/color]

covered this before, the difference is our church is universal. Yours might not have the same thing with the church down the corner. You are dependant on that particular community based on tha particula pastor. Hence why your move is tough. Sounds like you had a great situation. But this is variable from church to church. just b/c you never felt fellowship when you were a Catholic, that doesn't mean that fellowship does not exist. some parishes are better at this than others, but fellowship can be had.

[color="#FF0000"]Knowing where you are going when you die.[/color]

jargon, and we touched on this. "knowing" and "convincing yourself" are two different things. I believe I will go to heaven. Can I do something to mess that up? Yup.. Will God take me back, yup...but it is mine to reject if I choose to reject it. Your god doesnt love you enough to give you that free will. Sad, considering Augustine said free will is the greatest Gift God gave man outside of his Son

[color="#FF0000"]Knowing God will never abandon you. {Hebrews 13:5}[/color]

Great verse, understand that 1-4 is all about what you would take as works. The direct reference is Psalm 118:6; which could also be strongly understood as works. I dont think that God will abandon me, I think i can reject him, but he will always be there waiting for me to come back. What am I lacking here? we too believe that God will not abandon us. however, we also believe that we can abandon God.

[color="#FF0000"]Seperating from the world's wickedness and false values that lead to destruction.[/color]

Considering that protestantism is in itself the child of relativism, and the average protestant church is focused on marketing a country club type community, I feel you would be more on my side of the battle here. You should listen to Peter Kreeft and his audio lecture on the battle against the culture war

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm"]http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm[/url]

[color="#FF0000"]Seperating from interfaithism, the road to the antichrist, and compromise.[/color]

No offense ma'am, but there is alot of jargon here and things I would desire for you to explain please. In my understanding protestantism waters down far more than catholicism.there is a legitimate way to be ecumenical and the Church has never taught that the way to do this is by watering down the Gospel. all she has to do is read the decree on ecumenism from Vatican II

[color="#8B0000"]Having God to depend on no matter how hard life gets and always having a core joy in Christ no matter how bad things get.[/color]

How am I lacking this?

[color="#FF0000"]Thanks for asking. [/color]

anytime. You remind me of my mom in many ways.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Revprodeji

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209931' date='Mar 7 2007, 05:04 PM']Toastmasters? Can you talk to God in your OWN Words and not in someone else's script? Dont you think GOd would want You to talk to Him in your own words?[/quote]
Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave us the words of the Lord's Prayer (Matt 6:9-13 and Luke 11:2-4) when asked how to pray.
Even the Hail Mary is based on the words of Scripture (Luke 1:28, 42). (This should also lay to rest any notion that giving honor and praise to Mary is "unbiblical.")

And do you ever pray or read psalms? Wouldn't that be "praying in someone else's words"?

Of course, we can pray to God in our own words, too, but Scripture attests that there is obviously a place for "using someone else's script."

Why don't you read your Bible, rather than just thump it?

[N/A Gone]

be good, I want this between budge and I..

mods, can you take Budge and My parts and give us a private thread..

pleeeeeeaaaasssseeeee!!!!!!!

I give plenty of tacos, so very tasty and good for you,

[img]http://dailytitan.fullerton.edu/issues/fall_03/11_20/images/cartman.jpg[/img]