Hey Protestant Bros!

[Brother Adam]

To my fellow protestant brethren. I think these Catholics need more exercise. Let's make them go on a marathon shall we?

What is wrong with papal authority? Why is it not only un-biblical but expressly anti-biblical? Why can it never be accepted as a true Christian doctrine?

I'm interested in how our Catholic brothers and sisters will answer as this is an area I'm now exploring intensively, and want your input.

bro. Adam :argue: :chinese: :loco: :bounce:

Edited January 25, 2004 by Brother Adam

[Bruce S]

Before we all start digging on document dumping.

We need honestly to ask. WHY?

I'm making this opening gambit simple. Popes are totally unneeded. Bishops are. Supreme leadership, more akin really to a King [Pope], Dukes [Archbishops], Barons [bishops], Knights [Priests] etc. Essentially, all have TEMPORAL power, most have privelidges akin to medevial structures.

Christ did NOT intend for a secular structure to be built upon the backs of the Roman power structure replacing government with His church sitting in an amost idential role.

Man was meant to OVERSEE, with scripture the church , there always were many. One is to lead by sticking PERFECTLY to what Jesus taught.

The papal MISTAKE [succession is invented] and the attendent power apparatus that over time grafted itself onto this body called Christianity is what lead to ALL the problems in Christ's church.

I keep coming bact to MY CENTRAL point.

If Papalism is DESIRED BY GOD, he would have protected it, guided it, and made sure it was not. The string of KIDS, CORRUPTION, TEMPORAL POWER GRABS, and WORSE, would NOT be allowed by God. The Holy Spirit to me is alive, He watches over His church. I know you don't understand the HS in the same way as I do, but this is what I have come to believe.

Popes really are NOT needed, they, in my thinking, have done MORE HARM to the body of Christ [all of US guys...all of US] than any other mistake of men.

Now...

On to the document dumping. [Argh, can you guys debate without that?]

[Laudate_Dominum]

I know this thread is for protestants, but I just wanted to say thank you Brother! This is a most excellent topic of discussion. One of my favorites actually. Talk to you later.

Peace.

[Brother Adam]

I know this thread is for protestants, but I just wanted to say thank you Brother! This is a most excellent topic of discussion. One of my favorites actually. Talk to you later.

Peace.

Hey L_D!

Feel free to start responding any time! I just wanted to catch their attention

:duel:

[Bruce S]

It is in SUCESSION that this falls apart.

The initial DELEGATION of power to Peter, seems to have occurred, NOT as it is REVISED, but for his life and times. Moreso, scripture shows that Peter himself errored, was corrected by others, and was more of an evangelist than leader of a temporal power structure. Others in Peter's lifetime were noted as having a leadership role, James comes to mind in Jerusalem, and Paul outside of Jerusalem.

Passing that along forever, is where it is problematical.

Edited January 25, 2004 by Bruce S

[DojoGrant]

Quick thought:

The Catholic Church has about 1 billion members today.

How many did it have when Peter was still alive? A few thousand? Ten thousand?

Is it fair to compare the administrative structure as used today as that used with Peter when it simply was not NEEDED at the time? Is it not possible to have developed as the Holy Spirit foresaw and foreordained simply because we're looking at a smaller "world" in Biblical times, much less a smaller Christian world?

[siebersusi]

To my fellow protestant brethren. I think these Catholics need more exercise. Let's make them go on a marathon shall we?

What is wrong with papal authority? Why is it not only un-biblical but expressly anti-biblical? Why can it never be accepted as a true Christian doctrine?

I'm interested in how our Catholic brothers and sisters will answer as this is an area I'm now exploring intensively, and want your input.

bro. Adam :argue: :chinese: :loco:

Papal authority begins by noting God, who is absolutely infallible, deigned to bestow on his new people-the church- a certain shared infalibility, but within three carefully restricted limits: (1) in matters of faith and morals; (2) when the whole people of God unhesitating hold a point of docterine pertaining to these matters; and (3) always dependent on the wise providence and anoiting of the grace of the Holy Spirit, who leads the Church into all truth until the glorious coming of it's Lord.

The university of the faithful, whom the Holy One has anoited, is incapable of error in belief. This is a property which belongs to the people as a whole; a supernatural discernment of faith is the means by which they make this property manifest, when, "from bishops to the most obscure laymen," they show their universal agreement in matters of faith and morals.

This all takes place under the guidance of the sacred magisterium, when the people of God, in loyal submission to it, accepts not the word of man but what really is the word od God (1 TH. 2:13).

suSi

[Laudate_Dominum]

Ah! Thanks Brother Adam... I guess a good place to start would be some minor comments on Bruce S's first post.

Popes are totally unneeded. Bishops are. Supreme leadership, more akin really to a King [Pope], Dukes [Archbishops], Barons [bishops], Knights [Priests] etc. Essentially, all have TEMPORAL power, most have privelidges akin to medevial structures.

Any large organization of people needs leadership. That is why governments have presidents and prime ministers and hierarchical structures. It's common sense. Any large protestant denomination has a hierarchical structure and some have a "supreme pontiff" if you will. These structures are necessary for order and unity and just basic logistical operation. It's silly to suggest that Christ founded a Church without structures of authority and it goes against the Bible and the fact of the Church throughout history. You're just making up your own Church. It seems like protestants take the Bible and see it as a blueprint of what Christianity and the Church is supposed to be. And it's up to each individual Christian to figure that out on his own. Give me a break! Christ establish One Church. And it is from the living Tradition of that Church that we have the Bible and it is through the living Tradition of that Church that we can understand the Bible. And while the medieval structures analogy you made has a grain of truth to it, don't forget that kingdoms go back long before medieval times and that the Church IS the kingdom of God. And the Pope is not the king! He is the King's vicar on earth. Christ is the King. But that analogy is inadequate because the Church is not primarily an earthly structure for Christ's kingdom "is not of this world", so you cannot understand the full mystical reality of Christ's body if all you see are the visible structures.

Christ did NOT intend for a secular structure to be built upon the backs of the Roman power structure replacing government with His church sitting in an amost idential role.

That's nice that you've somehow been given the charism to know what Christ intends. First of all the stucture of the Church was in place before Christianity was legal in the Roman Empire. I'm sure you know of all the Popes and Bishops who were martyred in the catacombs and all that. And I'm sure Christ intended something because the events that unfolded after Christianity was legal were more or less the spread of Christianity and Christian culture all over Europe and the founding of Christendom. That's pretty stinking cool.

I've skipped some of your comments because they don't make sense to me and I don't want to waste time commenting on what you didn't actually mean.

If Papalism is DESIRED BY GOD, he would have protected it, guided it, and made sure it was not. The string of KIDS, CORRUPTION, TEMPORAL POWER GRABS, and WORSE, would NOT be allowed by God.

And He has! I'd say the fact that the Papacy still exists after 2000 years despite all the turbulent history during that time is a pretty clear sign of God's hand at work. Look at the history of other structures and organizations during this time. They all vanish with the tides. The Church is something of an anachronism in modern times because it has survived all the revolutions and wars and corruptions of the ages. Thanks be to God. It struck me once when I saw a picture of the Pope meeting with the president of the United States and I thought of how the president is the leader of a structure that is just a blip on the screen compared to the ancient office of the Papacy which has seen the greatest and the darkest times in the history of western civilation and endured.

And God never promised that there would not be scandal and turmoil in the Church or that it's members would not be sinners. It has always been like that. Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, the Apostles had disputes and scandals, Paul had to rebuke Peter. But, "what if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means!" (Rom 3:3-4).

Christ compared his Church to a field in which wheat and weeds grow together. And Our faith is not planted upon men, nor is it based upon the wisdom and eloquence of men, but on the Power of God. And God uses weak, frail human instruments to manifest His Power.

[Truth]

We can give all the proof that the Bible and History can provide and still hit the wall with the Catholics.

We few Christians, understand the Holy Spirit. The Catholic don't understand the Holy Spirit.

We understand that The Cc transformed from the Roman empire.

We understand that oral tradition is a means of false trace back to Peter.

We further understand that if that trace is broken the back of the Cc is broken.

We know that Christ didn't set up this hiarchy of the Cc, because he gave us equal powers. The apostle shared equal power in the will of God.

We know that Mary was a vessal, not a God.

We know that Scripture trumps scare tradition.

We know that the Cc frist move to lead the Church from Christ was the sabbath.

We know that the Cc second move to lead the Church from Christ was Mary & saints.

We know that the Cc third move to lead the church from Christ was the pope.

We know that the Cc forth move to lead the church from Christ was the baptism.

We know that the Cc fifth move to lead the church from Christ was it us of the Lords Last supper.

We know that Rev 17-19 talk about the Woman and the Dragon the Cc call her The Holy Mother Church. Babylon is Rome, Draqon is the Anti-christ, The woman is Cc.

Mystery Babylon the Great, The Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abominations of the Earth. Very interchangable. "if it walk like a duck"

We know that saved by faith, but lead by the Holy Spirit.

We know that you can't be lead by the Holy Spirit is you have not received it.

We know that God didn't leave anything to chance so he reveal it by Prophecy and had them write it down. Rev 1:1-3.

Satan on the other hand used oral tradition because it had no trace to him.

Where is common sense?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Where is common sense?

Thats what I say. When are you going to stop bashing and actually talk to us? Nobody even takes you seriously when you post bogus like that.

[Truth]

Papal authority begins by noting God, who is absolutely infallible, deigned to bestow on his new people-the church- a certain shared infalibility, but within three carefully restricted limits: (1) in matters of faith and morals; (2) when the whole people of God unhesitating hold a point of docterine pertaining to these matters; and (3) always dependent on the wise providence and anoiting of the grace of the Holy Spirit, who leads the Church into all truth until the glorious coming of it's Lord.

The university of the faithful, whom the Holy One has anoited, is incapable of error in belief. This is a property which belongs to the people as a whole; a supernatural discernment of faith is the means by which they make this property manifest, when, "from bishops to the most obscure laymen," they show their universal agreement in matters of faith and morals.

This all takes place under the guidance of the sacred magisterium, when the people of God, in loyal submission to it, accepts not the word of man but what really is the word od God (1 TH. 2:13).

suSi

God instuction to Enoch to write down ever thing he said and saw. God istruction to Moses was to write down what he said and saw. The Prophets from Enoch to John wrote down everything from God. Luke 1:70, Pete 1:19,20, Rev1:1-3, The Cc is still here because of the Prophsy of John states in Rev 17-19 have not yet happen.

[Truth]

Ah! Thanks Brother Adam... I guess a good place to start would be some minor comments on Bruce S's first post.

Any large organization of people needs leadership. That is why governments have presidents and prime ministers and hierarchical structures. It's common sense. Any large protestant denomination has a hierarchical structure and some have a "supreme pontiff" if you will. These structures are necessary for order and unity and just basic logistical operation. It's silly to suggest that Christ founded a Church without structures of authority and it goes against the Bible and the fact of the Church throughout history. You're just making up your own Church. It seems like protestants take the Bible and see it as a blueprint of what Christianity and the Church is supposed to be. And it's up to each individual Christian to figure that out on his own. Give me a break! Christ establish One Church. And it is from the living Tradition of that Church that we have the Bible and it is through the living Tradition of that Church that we can understand the Bible. And while the medieval structures analogy you made has a grain of truth to it, don't forget that kingdoms go back long before medieval times and that the Church IS the kingdom of God. And the Pope is not the king! He is the King's vicar on earth. Christ is the King. But that analogy is inadequate because the Church is not primarily an earthly structure for Christ's kingdom "is not of this world", so you cannot understand the full mystical reality of Christ's body if all you see are the visible structures.

That's nice that you've somehow been given the charism to know what Christ intends. First of all the stucture of the Church was in place before Christianity was legal in the Roman Empire. I'm sure you know of all the Popes and Bishops who were martyred in the catacombs and all that. And I'm sure Christ intended something because the events that unfolded after Christianity was legal were more or less the spread of Christianity and Christian culture all over Europe and the founding of Christendom. That's pretty stinking cool.

I've skipped some of your comments because they don't make sense to me and I don't want to waste time commenting on what you didn't actually mean.

And He has! I'd say the fact that the Papacy still exists after 2000 years despite all the turbulent history during that time is a pretty clear sign of God's hand at work. Look at the history of other structures and organizations during this time. They all vanish with the tides. The Church is something of an anachronism in modern times because it has survived all the revolutions and wars and corruptions of the ages. Thanks be to God. It struck me once when I saw a picture of the Pope meeting with the president of the United States and I thought of how the president is the leader of a structure that is just a blip on the screen compared to the ancient office of the Papacy which has seen the greatest and the darkest times in the history of western civilation and endured.

And God never promised that there would not be scandal and turmoil in the Church or that it's members would not be sinners. It has always been like that. Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, the Apostles had disputes and scandals, Paul had to rebuke Peter. But, "what if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means!" (Rom 3:3-4).

Christ compared his Church to a field in which wheat and weeds grow together. And Our faith is not planted upon men, nor is it based upon the wisdom and eloquence of men, but on the Power of God. And God uses weak, frail human instruments to manifest His Power.

You used this before but the truth is; The Cc is a goverment transformed from the Roman Empire. I will come again as the Holy Roman Empire with the Anti-christ.

[Laudate_Dominum]

These are quotes from protestant Scripture scholars regarding the meaning of 'the keys' of Peter.

"Isaiah 22:15 undoubtedly lies behind this [Matthew 16:19] saying. The keys are the symbol of authority, and Roland de Vaux (Ancient Israel, pg 129) rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah;...and Jotham as regent is also described as 'over the household'(II Kings 15:5)." - W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1971), pg 196.

"And what about the 'keys of the kingdom'? The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the cheif steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palack in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim:...(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward." - F.F. Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1983), pg 143-144.

"The keys of the house are delivered to those who are appointed to be stewards, that they may have the full power of opening and shutting according to their own pleasure. By 'the house of David' is meant 'the royal house.' This mode of expression was customary among the people, because it had been promised to David that his kingdom would be forever... That is the reason why the kingdom was commonly called 'the house of David'." - John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Isaiah, vol 2, trans. William Pringle, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdemans, 1948), pg 136.

"The 'kingdom of heaven' is represented by authoritative teaching, the promulgation of authoritative Halakha that let's heaven's power rule in earthly things...Peter's rold as holder of the keys is fulfilled now, on earth, as chief teacher of the church." - M. Eugene Boring, "Matthew", in Pheme Perkins and Others, eds., The New Interpreter's Bible. vol 8, (Nashville, TN: Abington Press, 1995), pg 346.

"The keeper of the keys has authority within the house as administrator and teacher (cf. Isa. 22:20-25, ..). The language of binding and loosing is rabbinic terminology for authoritative teaching, for having authority to interpret the Torah and apply it to particular cases, declaring what is permitted and what is not permitted. Jesus, who has taught with authority (7:29) and has given his authority to his disciples (10:1,8) here gives his primary disciple the authority to teach in his name." - The New Interpreter's Bible. vol. 8, (Nashville, TN: Abington Press, 1995), pg 346.

"The image of keys (plural) perhaps suggests not so much the porter, who controls admission to the house, as the steward, who regulates its administration (Is 22:22, in conjunction with 22:15). The issue then is not that of admission to the church (which is not what the kingdom of heaven means; see pp.  45-47) but an authority derived from a 'delegation of God's sovereignty.'" - Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), pg 256.

[cmotherofpirl]

Truth its only common sense to know somebody has to be in charge, and keep everybody headed in the same direction. To think God would leave His sheep alone for the wolves, after the death of Peter, is not to know the God of history.

[siebersusi]

Few Christians? (Where did you get your numbers?) Catholics don't Undersatand? (Who gave you the authority to understand?)

Having founded the Church by his blood, Christ strengthened it on Pentecost and inspired it with its sense of mission to preach the Good News to ALL nations. "He wished to make known and proclaim his spouse through the visible coming of the Holy Spirit with the sound of a mighty wind and tongues of fire. For just as he himself, when he began to preach, was made known by his eternal Father through the Holy Spirit decending and remaining on him in the form of a dove, so likewise, as the apostles were about to enter on their ministry of preaching, Christ our Lord sent the Holy Spirit down from heaven, to touch them with tongues of fire and to point out, as by the finger of God, the supernatural mission and office of the CHURCH...

Thus the cycle of the Church's formation was finished as it started, with the HOLY SPIRIT. He overshadowed Mary at Nazareth "and the Word was made flesh." He descended on the disciples at Jerusalem and "that very day about three thousand were added to their number.

suSi