Why Mary Was Sinless

[Farsight one]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1209919' date='Mar 7 2007, 03:49 PM']Romans 3:23 "[b]All[/b] have sinned."[/quote]Either it is a generalization, or it isn't.

If it is a generalization, than we need only lump the vast majority of humanity into the group "all"

If it is not a generalization, than we need to lump even Jesus himself into the group "all"

Since Jesus was sinless, and therfore not a part of "all", it is a generalization. And since it is a generalization, it does not necessarily encompass Mary.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Farsight one

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1209930' date='Mar 7 2007, 04:04 PM']Either it is a generalization, or it isn't.

If it is a generalization, than we need only lump the vast majority of humanity into the group "all"

If it is not a generalization, than we need to lump even Jesus himself into the group "all"

Since Jesus was sinless, and therfore not a part of "all", it is a generalization that does not necessarily encompass Mary.[/quote]
Jesus is the sole sinless being. Sorry, not a generalization. Jesus was a "human," yes, but He was also God.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1209932' date='Mar 7 2007, 04:05 PM']Jesus is the sole sinless being. Sorry, not a generalization. Jesus was a "human," yes, but He was also God.[/quote]You can't say it's not a generalization AND it doesn't include Jesus. If it doesn't include Jesus, than it doesn't literally mean "all", and is by default a generalization. How do you not understand this?

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1209936' date='Mar 7 2007, 04:08 PM']You can't say it's not a generalization AND it doesn't include Jesus. If it doesn't include Jesus, than it doesn't literally mean "all", and is by default a generalization. How do you not understand this?[/quote]

How do you not understand that this verse is referring to all persons who are not God?

Rom 3:1-31 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? (2) Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (3) For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (5) But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? I (speak as a man) (6) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? (7) For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (8) And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. (9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) [color="#FF0000"]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;[/color] (24) [b]Being justified [/b]freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (29) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: (30) Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. (31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Now, who is this "all" referring to? Is it referring to God? Jesus Christ? Or humans? Who is being justified? Is Christ being justified? Or humans who put their faith in Christ?

And again, there are only two occurences in the Greek where the phrase "full of grace" is used, and neither occurrence refers to Mary.

[Mr.Cat]

[b]Post 1 of 2[/b]
Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle. "All have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin. Finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "[i]pantes[/i]." Also the Angels in Heaven are free from sin.[quote][b]1 Corinthians 15:22[/b]
"And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53015.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53015.htm[/url][/quote]In Adam all ("[i]pantes[/i]") have died, and in Christ all ("[i]pantes[/i]") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven ([i]because Jesus said so[/i]).[quote][b]Romans 5:12[/b]
"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world, and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52005.htm[/url][/quote]Paul says that death spread to all ("[i]pantes[/i]") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah). [quote][b]Romans 5:19[/b]
"For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52005.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/52005.htm[/url][/quote]Here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "[i]polloi[/i]," not "[i]pantes[/i]." Is Paul contradicting what he said in [b]Romans 3:23[/b]? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.[quote][quote][b]Acts of the Apostles 6:8[/b]
"And Stephen, full of grace and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51006.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/51006.htm[/url][/quote]
[quote][b]Acts of the Apostles 6:8[/b]
"Stephanus autem [b]plenus[/b] gratia et fortitudine faciebat prodigia et signa magna in populo "
[url="http://www.drbo.org/lvb/chapter/51006.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/lvb/chapter/51006.htm[/url][/quote][/quote]Saint Stephen the Martyr was indeed full of grace, as the translation calls for, but when we look at the Latin Vulgate by Saint Jerome it is not “[i]gratia plena[/i]” like it calls the Blessed Virgin and our Blessed Lord but is “[i]plenus gratia[/i]” not in the eternal tense. Meaning that he was full of grace at the moment of his martyrdom (where all sin is washed away in Baptism of Blood) thus attaining eternal life. Because it is not etneral he was not always full of grace as “[i]gratia plena[/i]” suggests which is in the eternal tense.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Mr.Cat]

[b]Post 2 of 2[/b]
The phrase "[i]κεχαριτωμένη[/i]" is used to the Blessed Virgin which does not translate to "highly favored" but rather it translates to "full of grace." Moreover the word used for Saint Stephen the Martyr is "[i]πίστις[/i]" so in no way is it "full of grace" and even in the King James version it is written that he was "full of faith and power."[quote]κεχαριτωμένη is a compound word with these characteristics: verb, perfect tense, passive, participle, singular, nominative and feminine. It is also the SOLE instance that χαρις appears in the Bible in this form.

Verb
■ n. Grammar a word used to describe an action, state, or occurrence, and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence, such as run, become, or happen.
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Perfect Tense: Grammar (of a tense) denoting a completed action or a state or habitual action which began in the past, formed in English with have or has and the past participle, as in they have eaten.
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Passive: 2 Grammar denoting a voice of verbs in which the subject undergoes the action of the verb (e.g. they were killed as opposed to he killed them). The opposite of active.
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

participle
■ n. Grammar a word formed from a verb (e.g. going, gone, being, been) and used as an adjective or noun (as in burnt toast, good breeding) or used to make compound verb forms (is going, has been).
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Singular: 1 Grammar (of a word or form) denoting or referring to just one person or thing.
† single; unique.
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Feminine: 2 Grammar of or denoting a gender of nouns and adjectives, conventionally regarded as female.
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.

In short, the Greek indicates Mary is in an ongoing state of κεχαριτωμένη, which is exactly what the Church teaches about Mary. Your assertion that κεχαριτωμένη means "Mary found favor with God" is not at all the meaning of the word, and it appears that, far from the Catholic Church reading something into the scripture, you are trying to deny something there in the text.

Ephesians 1:6 uses χάριτος, which is Noun, Genitive, Singular, Feminine.

Genitive: ■ adj. denoting a case indicating possession or close association.
Soanes, C., & Stevenson, A. (2004). Concise Oxford English dictionary (11th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press.[/quote]Moreover the early Christians certainly taught that she was free from all sin from the start so this idea that she is not immaculate is completely an innovation from man and not from God. So Protestants propose a theology that contradicts the prediction of the savior in the Bible that He would come from a sinless woman so this means our Blessed Lord could not be the savior. Further, they misconstrue the verses in scriptures taking meanings that are not there even to the point of denying the original authorship. Moreover, they deny the early church writings that are rather clear on this point.[quote]"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." [b]Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (A.D. 235).[/b][/quote][quote]"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." [b]Origen, Homily 1 (A.D. 244).[/b][/quote][quote]"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." [b]Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).[/b][/quote][quote]"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." [b]Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).[/b][/quote][quote]"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." [b]Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (AD 373).[/b][/quote]If you wanted to add this we can also show that the Blessed Virgin is the Ark of the New Covenant by parallel descriptions in scripture, thus she must be pure and clean from sin.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[rkwright]

Nice post CatholicCat... I tried to post the stuff about Kecharitomene earlier but phatmass was being weird and I couldn't post.

I'll paste something in from catholic.com which reiterates what CatholicCat is saying...

[quote]When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.[/quote]

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1209962' date='Mar 7 2007, 05:02 PM'][b]Post 1 of 2[/b]
Some Protestants use this verse "all have sinned" in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary's case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle. "All have sinned" also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin. Finally, "all have sinned," but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is "[i]pantes[/i]." Also the Angels in Heaven are free from sin.In Adam all ("[i]pantes[/i]") have died, and in Christ all ("[i]pantes[/i]") shall live. This proves that "all" does not mean "every single one." This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven ([i]because Jesus said so[/i]).Paul says that death spread to all ("[i]pantes[/i]") men. Again, this proves that "all" does not mean "every single one" because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah). Here Paul says "many (not all) were made sinners." Paul uses "[i]polloi[/i]," not "[i]pantes[/i]." Is Paul contradicting what he said in [b]Romans 3:23[/b]? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.
Saint Stephen the Martyr was indeed full of grace, as the translation calls for, but when we look at the Latin Vulgate by Saint Jerome it is not “[i]gratia plena[/i]” like it calls the Blessed Virgin and our Blessed Lord but is “[i]plenus gratia[/i]” not in the eternal tense. Meaning that he was full of grace at the moment of his martyrdom (where all sin is washed away in Baptism of Blood) thus attaining eternal life. Because it is not etneral he was not always full of grace as “[i]gratia plena[/i]” suggests which is in the eternal tense.[/quote]

And yet, the term for "full of grace" is missing in the Greek. You're using a Latin translation to build a doctrine that is not found in the Greek.

[NewReformation]

The phrase used to translate "highly favored" is actually [b]χαριτόω[/b] or [b]κεχαριτωμενη[/b] which means "From G5485; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured."

Now, if you want to get technical, the phrase "full of grace" would be "plaras karitos" which is found in Acts 6:8 and John 1:14.
Acts 6:8 8στεφανος δε [b]πληρης χαριτος[/b] και δυναμεως εποιει τερατα και σημεια μεγαλα εν τω λαω

[Mr.Cat]

I use the Latin Vulgate because it is the summation and perfection of Christian Scripture in about the year four hundred on the Gregorian calendar (400 AD) lasting even to today. Many scripture scholars turn to Saint Jerome’s work and other works which ALL use the phrase “[i]gratia plena[/i]” so regardless of how you look at it the Christians believed it was “[i]gratia plena[/i].” The translation that proposed “highly favored” did not peer its head till really the nineteen hundreds (1900’s). This is the reason why I note the Latin because Latin is historically the language of the Christians. So for one to intentionally oppose the translation of “[i]gratia plena[/i]” is to oppose the entire Christian foundation and to propose that Christianity fell to the gates of Hell.

"[i]πίστις[/i]" as I pointed out before is not “full of grace” in the same sense for both the Latin Vulgate and the King James version of the Bible (even though the King James is hardly the Bible just a deformity of it) do not say “full of grace” in the same light. So the argument is completly invalid.

I made a quote about the phrase used for the Blessed Virgin from the Oxford University Press, all about the single word, “[i]κεχαριτωμένη[/i]”. It shows that it does indeed mean “full of grace” but even if one wants to argue that the translation should read “highly favored one” the meaning of the passage is about the same. Protestants simply presume that the mutilation of this single passage will defeat this passage evidence that she was preserved from original sin (even though there are hundreds of other proofs).

[b]Highly[/b] means in the fullest meaning of the word: extremely, very, exceedingly, greatly, vastly, decidedly, tremendously, exceptionally, extraordinarily, “to the highest degree”, immeasurably, or absolutely.

[b]Favored[/b] means in the fullest meaning of the word: preferential, VIP, “no-expense-spared”, special, privileged, superior, better, “important person”, preferential, “unique”, advantaged, or greater.

[b]One[/b] means in the fullest meaning of the word: single, solitary, lone, individual, solo, private, distinct, or “creature”.

So a Protestant whom truly believed this passage as they proposed would be claiming that the Blessed Virgin is exceedingly to the highest degree was spared no expenses in being a uniquely important person in the role of salvation to which this blessing is singular and solitary to her. Because of this interpretation one can automatically presume that she is free from sin by the presence of that favor. But because this is a faulty translation “highly favored one” there is no reason for me to entertain this interpretation but Protestants need to relies that this sinful change of the Sacred Canon does not help their case but rather makes it harder.

But we are diverging from [u][b]the topic as a whole[/b][/u] and [u][b]the original post[/b][/u], let us not narrow down on a single translation and keep the theology of the matter.

Edited March 8, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Mr.Cat]

[b]Double Post[/b] ([i]56k connection somtimes messes up[/i])

Edited March 8, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[FullTruth]

Although I don't believe Mary was sinless, I think this isn't a heaven or hell issue.

I'm going to be the first one here to say what some people probably already think, who cares!

Is it trusting in Mary's sinless nature going to save us, or is it trusting in God's redemptive act of the Christ's death on the cross going to save us?

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote name='NewReformation' post='1209917' date='Mar 7 2007, 04:49 PM']I dunno...how could that happen...???
And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people. Acts 6:8

There are only two places in the Greek where the phrase "full of grace" is used, and neither of those is in reference to Mary.[/quote]


Okay...Let me restate my question. How can one be filled with grace [i]before[/i] the passion, death, and resurection of our blessed Lord?

[Mr.Cat]

The importance of the Blessed Virgin being immaculate is because we have our Blessed Lord whom Perfects and then we have the Blessed Virgin whom is the perfected. So while we imitate our Blessed Lord to whom we should look also is the Blessed Mother for her Immaculate Conception should increase our love of God, show us the power of God, and help us strive for Christian perfection by looking upon the purity that was granted to her. Even further if one denies the redemptive power of Christ and the power of God to have the Blessed Virgin free from sin then to what hope do we have? ([i]More to be said but this will do[/i])

Our Lady of Fatima listed the offences against her Immaculate Heart (to which they offend God greatly) and she lists disbelief in her Immaculate Conception and Status. Then moreover it is Dogmatic Law of the Church therefore all the faithful are bound to believe it not only because it is true but because it is bound by the Church.

[NewReformation]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1210156' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:55 PM']I use the Latin Vulgate because it is the summation and perfection of Christian Scripture in about the year four hundred on the Gregorian calendar (400 AD) lasting even to today. Many scripture scholars turn to Saint Jerome’s work and other works which ALL use the phrase “[i]gratia plena[/i]” so regardless of how you look at it the Christians believed it was “[i]gratia plena[/i].” The translation that proposed “highly favored” did not peer its head till really the nineteen hundreds (1900’s). This is the reason why I note the Latin because Latin is historically the language of the Christians. So for one to intentionally oppose the translation of “[i]gratia plena[/i]” is to oppose the entire Christian foundation and to propose that Christianity fell to the gates of Hell.

"[i]πίστις[/i]" as I pointed out before is not “full of grace” in the same sense for both the Latin Vulgate and the King James version of the Bible (even though the King James is hardly the Bible just a deformity of it) do not say “full of grace” in the same light. So the argument is completly invalid.

I made a quote about the phrase used for the Blessed Virgin from the Oxford University Press, all about the single word, “[i]κεχαριτωμένη[/i]”. It shows that it does indeed mean “full of grace” but even if one wants to argue that the translation should read “highly favored one” the meaning of the passage is about the same. Protestants simply presume that the mutilation of this single passage will defeat this passage evidence that she was preserved from original sin (even though there are hundreds of other proofs).

[b]Highly[/b] means in the fullest meaning of the word: extremely, very, exceedingly, greatly, vastly, decidedly, tremendously, exceptionally, extraordinarily, “to the highest degree”, immeasurably, or absolutely.

[b]Favored[/b] means in the fullest meaning of the word: preferential, VIP, “no-expense-spared”, special, privileged, superior, better, “important person”, preferential, “unique”, advantaged, or greater.

[b]One[/b] means in the fullest meaning of the word: single, solitary, lone, individual, solo, private, distinct, or “creature”.

So a Protestant whom truly believed this passage as they proposed would be claiming that the Blessed Virgin is exceedingly to the highest degree was spared no expenses in being a uniquely important person in the role of salvation to which this blessing is singular and solitary to her. Because of this interpretation one can automatically presume that she is free from sin by the presence of that favor. But because this is a faulty translation “highly favored one” there is no reason for me to entertain this interpretation but Protestants need to relies that this sinful change of the Sacred Canon does not help their case but rather makes it harder.

But we are diverging from [u][b]the topic as a whole[/b][/u] and [u][b]the original post[/b][/u], let us not narrow down on a single translation and keep the theology of the matter.[/quote]

A: The Bible wasn't written in Latin, it was written in Greek.

B: Using a translation rather than the original tongue to create a theology is a faulty method of creating doctrine.

C: I don't believe the Roman Church is a Christian Institution, nor has been so for many hundreds of years.

D: I believe there have been plenty of other Christians throughout the centuries outside the Roman Church to negate the idea that the church fell into apostasy and thus negated the NT scripture that states that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.

E: I did not use the Greek underlying the KJV. This renders your argument against the KJV null and void.