Small Sins

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Church's teaching is in CCC 1863 ([url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM"]link[/url]). I'll post some snippets:

[i]What happens when you intend to commit venial sin?[/i]
"[b]Deliberate and unrepented venial sin[/b] disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. [b]However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God[/b]; it does not break the covenant with God."

[i]What happens after death to those with venial sin?[/i]
"[Venial sin] merits temporal punishment."
(Temporal punishment is purgatory.)

God bless!

Edited March 21, 2007 by thedude

[Archangel]

Don't sweat over your venial sins. You should be concerned about your mortal sins and go to Confession as soon as you can.

[jesussaves]

Purgatory by definition does not forgive venial sins.
The passage you provide says that venial sins, even deliberate, do not beaver dam.
You have to be perfect to enter into heaven.
I don't see how or when venial sins are forgiven so that you can be perfect to enter heaven in the Catholic Church.
If there's no place that says when or where, just admit it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote][b]Pope John Paul II - RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE, par. 32[/b]
...the church knows and teaches that venial sins are forgiven in other ways too-for instance, by acts of sorrow, works of charity, prayer, penitential rites...[/quote]
Much penance takes place in the process of purgatory. In Catholicism, we believe that acts of the faithful on earth can assist them in their sufferings as well. Imperfections like venial sin are purged in purgatory.

Edited March 21, 2007 by thedude

[jesussaves]

That's interesting. Thanks.
But, even with that paradigm, I assume, though I may be mistaken, they are only forgiven if you are sorry for the sins. I submit that there are some venial sins that people content themselves with and have no intention of stopping. I would bet that accurately characterizes at least most people.
So, how do those sins get forgiven?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

When they see their sin as it is in purgatory, they will repent. According to what I read in an answer to a question in the Diocese of Lincoln, NE's newspaper, repetence after death is impossible for mortal sins, but possible for venial:
[url="http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9"]http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9[/url]
The Catechism quotes St. Gregory the Great to this effect in paragraph 1031:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM[/url]

By the way, I neglected to link to the full document of [i]RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE[/i] which I quoted above:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...itentia_en.html[/url]

[Mercy me]

Jesussaves, why who you want to sin continuously and not want to stop? Sin hurts the Lord. Why wouldn't you want to stop doing something that hurts Him?

Sounds like a simple question but it is one that will get you to the answer to your original question.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='thedude' post='1217147' date='Mar 22 2007, 12:44 AM']When they see their sin as it is in purgatory, they will repent. According to what I read in an answer to a question in the Diocese of Lincoln, NE's newspaper, repetence after death is impossible for mortal sins, but possible for venial:
[url="http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9"]http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9[/url]
The Catechism quotes St. Gregory the Great to this effect in paragraph 1031:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM[/url]

By the way, I neglected to link to the full document of [i]RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE[/i] which I quoted above:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...itentia_en.html[/url][/quote]


I've answered that berfore. It's not good enough for him because it's not a dogmatic statement by the magesterium. He seems to have this hangup that everything is dogma and if it's not he doesn't like the answer.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1216712' date='Mar 20 2007, 09:50 PM']I am not trying to be rude by asking you or someone else to admit it. I am simply asking for candor. I admit I do not know if that person who just converts will be sanctified or not. All I know is they are forgiven.
I don't even necessarily believe you will be damned for believing what you do, but I have my suspicions. I mean that in Christian charity, so you will repent and trust in the Lord only. If your Church does not even teach what happens when you intend to commit venial sins, again, that's pretty fundamental. All I'm asking for is candor to what you know.
Sometimes I wonder if people here like to debate Budge because he's often obviously wrong, and that helps reaffirm their faith. Whereas they like to ignore this thread because of the implications it has to the invalidity of their current faith.[/quote]


No, I think they don't post on this thread because it's been answered adequately and they are not all that concerned about it. I personally don't have ANY venial sins that I intend on recommitting willfully and knowingly and I suspect most on this board would like to get rid of them all as well. Your question is a good enough one I guess but it is taught by the Church that all sin get's cleansed by the grace of Christ before entry to heaven. I don't know how our trust could be any less in Christ in this matter. Only because you want it to be I guess.

[quote]I admit I do not know if that person who just converts will be sanctified or not.[/quote]

The doctrine of imputed righteousness says that we are not sanctified and are righteous in Christ when we become Christians. Catholicism in fact says we are fully sanctified at baptism, given a true clean slate, though still with our tendancy toward sin. The sin is actually and in fact gone. But not protestants. Now if righteousness is only infused, ie. we're snow covered dung and yet nothing unclean shall enter heaven something's gotta give fore this new convert dude. It's pretty clear. But of course you cannot admit it because that point to purgatory.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1216574' date='Mar 20 2007, 04:54 PM']I don't think we have the same issues. Growing in sanctification is required. Sanctification to the point of perfection is not. The guy who just converted should have been such that he would have grown in sanctification. God knows these things. Plus, there's nothing saying he can't increase in holiness in the next life.[/quote]

Even speculation that allows for purgatory. We MUST be perfect to enter heaven. Not one tendancy toward anger or lust. Not one mention of a negative word. No doudt or fear of any sort. Yes, sanctification to the point of perfection is in fact required. We cannot become further sanctified in heaven. It has to happen before heaven. ALL OF IT. We can grow in understanding in heaven, for all eternity. But that's not the same as sanctification.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1217213' date='Mar 22 2007, 08:35 AM']I've answered that berfore. It's not good enough for him because it's not a dogmatic statement by the magesterium. He seems to have this hangup that everything is dogma and if it's not he doesn't like the answer.[/quote]
Well I suppose St. Gregory the Great's being quoted in the Catechism is an official endorsement of his statement on the issue. If I looked it up, I could probably also figure out if he was Pope at the time he wrote it.

[thessalonian]

Last night I read a part on purgatory In Ludwig Ott's dogma of Catholicism for another purpose and right there in the pages was what I told you about illumination of our sins when we are judged that brings us to repentence. Ott is hardly speculation and it's pretty much the cat's meow on teachings of the Catholic Church. But I doudt it will sastisfy you. While this matter is not dogmatically proclaimed it is pretty common teaching and hardly considered heretical. Not by any means. But you will persist because it leaves you feeling comfortable in your own home brewed theology.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='thedude' post='1217267' date='Mar 22 2007, 10:36 AM']Well I suppose St. Gregory the Great's being quoted in the Catechism is an official endorsement of his statement on the issue. If I looked it up, I could probably also figure out if he was Pope at the time he wrote it.[/quote]

It's certainly doctrinal. I also found it in Ott's book last night.

[jesussaves]

Thanks for the info.
Actually, you said you answered me, but I was asking for specific links, not just assertions. I hadn't gotten info until since after my last post. I'm still not sure I have.
I'm not sure of the validity of the link by the dude says, the Q and A section briefly very much says that you'd be forgiven in Purgatory, yet I've seen an overwhelming amount of literature say otherwise, that you cannot be forgiven in purgatory other than the temporal elements of sin. From this, it'd seem that last website is an outlier.

I think you're confused as to whether the forgiveness is a doctrinal teaching or not, from Gregory. You said it is just now, but before that you said it wasn't and for that reason I wouldn't be satisfied. That mention of Gregory in the Catechism only mentions that purgatory will forgive. That can mean what I've read before that temporal aspects of one's sins are what are forgiven.

I will need to look into the Ott info as I have no link etc.

If it was doctrinal, I would give up my point. If it's not, I know you think it petty, but I think that's crucial information that a true Church would possess definitively.

Edited March 24, 2007 by jesussaves

[thessalonian]

[quote]but I think that's crucial information that a true Church would possess definitively.[/quote]

Well guess then there are no true churches out there and we are to be "blown about by every wind of doctrine".

Otts statement does indicate that it may come soon after entering purgatory which I am sure you will find objection too. He does say that it happens soon after entering purgatory. All of this is of course in a different time frame so I am not sure anything we say in the english language can be very dogmatic on the matter of the afterlife. God has said "eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him". Church teaching does not give all the details on the afterlife (which purgatory is) because the afterlife is beyond the concern of scripture which is primarily for the purpose of getting us there.

Edited March 24, 2007 by thessalonian