Small Sins

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1213094' date='Mar 13 2007, 02:38 PM']That's quite an assumption to make, that you're going to commit a mortal sin eventually if you choose to comit venial always. It would seem to me that a person could content themself with their small flaws and not intend to fix them, just stay as they are. If I'm correct there's a flaw. If you're correct, there's not a flaw because my situation cannot occur. I think your assumption is flawed, and unfounded, as far as I can tell.[/quote]


Of course the non-catholic always knows better in these discussions. Did you read here post CAREFULLY.

"[b]IF[/b] you deliberately keep committing small sins the bigs ones follow and you will have chosen hell."

"So stealing a pen today [b]CAN [/b]lead to hell".

I highly doudt CMP was saying it is a sure thing that venial will lead to mortal. You of course seem to want to hold on to your alleged flaw because it leaves you feeling comfortable where you are at.

[jesussaves]

It's a flaw that no one has disproven. or reasonably shown to be my mistake. So I stand by it.
Maybe thats not what CMP intended. It doesn't matter, my point still stands.
You did say we would be forgiven when we see Jesus, and I forgot to respond to that. That also is a big assumption to make. Even if I granted purgatory, I have never heard what you said. True, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist your theory in reality. But it seems like a random theory given that most agree or at leave think you have to be forgiven in this life, that's the point of this life. We don't live just so we can just wait till the end. Your theory seems so random then that it seems that you are the one that is grasping straws because it leaves you feeling comfortable where you are at.

[thessalonian]

No, it is not speculation at all. The speculation is all yours.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm[/url]
New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, [b]neither in this world, nor in the world to come[/b]." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words [b]prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven a[/b]nd purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:


"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Comm. in Ps. xxxvii),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).
See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes,", IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275.

Edited March 13, 2007 by thessalonian

[jesussaves]

a few points. one is the protestant interpretation of those bible passages. the "in the age to come" is simply stressing that that sin will never being forgiven, not necessarily implying what you say. and the saved as by fire passage refers to when the bad parts of a sinner are cut off andor they finish sanctification depending on your protestant.

also, i've never heard of those passages you cite being referred to for the idea that we would be forgiven when we see Jesus. even the site you copy and pasted that from, the guy said "which the dross of lighter transgression will be burnt away", the gross being the temporal aspects of ones sins. everyone says the temporal elements are what purgatory is about.

can you provide even a catholic website that talks about actual forgiveness when you see Jesus? i can see a point that you might not sin again after seeing him, but i've never heard that you'd be forgiven. not even from a catholic, until now.

[jesussaves]

are you evading the topic because you're comfortable where you are, or do you think we've gotten too complicated to really discern? (i think sometimes you have to give up, at least for awhile when it's too complicated. but here i don't think my question is all that complicated or that we've reached that point)

[Archangel]

It's a good idea to read up on mortal and venial sins in the CCC at 1854-1864.

[jesussaves]

should i take it that everyone else would rather not face the issues posed by this thread too?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think CCC 1863 has your answer. Gotta run...

[jesussaves]

It would be nice if you would speak instead of paste. it makes it seem you do not understand what you're posting. That said, I do see that it says venial sin does not warrant eternal punishment. Should I take that to mean that you do not have to be perfect to get into heaven, which the bible says you do? Even Catholics say you have to be perfect, yet this says you don't? If i'm reading that right, it's somewhat ambiguous as to how venial sin doesn't warrant eternal punishment. (it does not limit itself to the temporal aspects of one's sins)

[thessalonian]

JS,

You know full well that we have to be perfected to get to heaven. Venial sin would have waranted eternal punishment, had Christ not died for our sins. Without the cleansing of grace, all sin prevents eternal life. I've given you an answer that is certainly in line with Church teaching. You don't except it. There is not much I can do about that. I have complete faith that Jesus will save me completely before heaven. I have complete faith that that last venial sin after I recieve my last eucharist, if I do not recieve last rites will be forgiven by Christ. Confession is about coming to him with our sins. In the physical world we musst confess through a priest. At the end our of lives he is right there and we will know our sins and be sorry for them if they are venial. If mortal we have already chosen our path. You want i's dotted and t's crossed on a very minute piece of theology. Is this an excuse for remaining where you are at?

Peace to you

Edited March 17, 2007 by thessalonian

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Yes, you must be perfect to enter heaven. Purgatory is when the imperfections are cleansed. Just to make it clear, purgatory is not heaven. After the cleansing, you enter heaven perfect. Venial sin does not merit eternal punishment, it merits temporal punishment - hence, purgatory and not hell. God bless!

Edited March 17, 2007 by thedude

[jesussaves]

Even if I am asking for the i's to be dotted and t's crossed, I don't think it's too much to ask here. Unforgiven sins can mean eternal salvation. I think most fall in the category of having small sins they never intend to fix. If you insist after you die you will see Jesus and will be forgiven, I would think you could find at least Catholic literature to back up your stance. I doubt the literature will be very valid if it's random people speculating, and the Church should have addressed this issue given the Prot v. Catholic debate. Regardless, all I ask for are a few sources to back up the claim.
Otherwise, I implore you to ask yourself whether you seriously think your efforts to win your salvation is what God intended, or if God intended to forgive you your sins simply on the basis of Jesus, and santification is REQUIRED as a testimony to that.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1216445' date='Mar 20 2007, 12:22 PM']Even if I am asking for the i's to be dotted and t's crossed, I don't think it's too much to ask here. Unforgiven sins can mean eternal salvation. I think most fall in the category of having small sins they never intend to fix. If you insist after you die you will see Jesus and will be forgiven, I would think you could find at least Catholic literature to back up your stance. I doubt the literature will be very valid if it's random people speculating, and the Church should have addressed this issue given the Prot v. Catholic debate. Regardless, all I ask for are a few sources to back up the claim.
Otherwise, I implore you to ask yourself whether you seriously think your efforts to win your salvation is what God intended, or if God intended to forgive you your sins simply on the basis of Jesus, and santification is REQUIRED as a testimony to that.[/quote]

My efforts to win my salvation? You talk nonsense.

The summa is a good place to start.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4087.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4087.htm[/url]

Venial sin is forgiven in many ways. Find me one place where what I have told you is said to be heretical. Not every doctrine in Catholicism is detailed down to the the last sentence. We have confidence in Christ just as you do. But you make that in to some works righteousness doctrine. Vice is counteracted by virtue and that in itself is a righting of venial sins. We are told that we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the end of life.

You have the same issues. You make sanctification optional. Billy Graham goes through a life of sanctification. If he gets on a bus with a post smoking guy living with a woman and getting drunk all the time and converts him, the second guy does not ahve to go through any sanctification if they go off a cliff and both die according to your theology. Yet if he were to go home he would still struggle with smoking pot and would still be living with the woman. Not really changed.

[jesussaves]

When I say you are earning your salvation, I am acknowledging that it's through God's grance throughout the process. I simply spoke carlessly because you are essentially earning your salvation if you have to become perfect.

I don't think we have the same issues. Growing in sanctification is required. Sanctification to the point of perfection is not. The guy who just converted should have been such that he would have grown in sanctification. God knows these things. Plus, there's nothing saying he can't increase in holiness in the next life.
So as you can imagine, I do not have a problem with speculation into things like that. But with the issue of forgiveness, how can the Catholic Church go so long without clarifying the basics such as forgiveness?

On that note, again, you simply asserted that you will be forgiven, without providing any evidence of what Catholic theology says on the matter. If you don't know of any, just admit it.

Edited March 20, 2007 by jesussaves

[jesussaves]

I am not trying to be rude by asking you or someone else to admit it. I am simply asking for candor. I admit I do not know if that person who just converts will be sanctified or not. All I know is they are forgiven.
I don't even necessarily believe you will be damned for believing what you do, but I have my suspicions. I mean that in Christian charity, so you will repent and trust in the Lord only. If your Church does not even teach what happens when you intend to commit venial sins, again, that's pretty fundamental. All I'm asking for is candor to what you know.
Sometimes I wonder if people here like to debate Budge because he's often obviously wrong, and that helps reaffirm their faith. Whereas they like to ignore this thread because of the implications it has to the invalidity of their current faith.

Edited March 21, 2007 by jesussaves