jesussaves Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 So the sins that you commit over and over, such as eating too much etc. Then you go to mass, and all your venial sins are forgiven. But you are only forgiven of the sins you're sorry for, and intend to not commit again right? If it's something you do repeatedly, you don't really intend to not do it again. There's always a sin like that on a person until they die. I'm trying my best to show you that becoming forgiven before you die is either legalistic, or it's just not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 (edited) You can commit a sin repeatedly and still have the intent to stop - the person suffers from weakness. Edited March 4, 2007 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Addiction and the force of habit can always contribute to the fall of someone who absolutely intends to stop committing a particular sin. We can always turn to Jesus and repent and be forgiven. It doesn't seem very legalistic to me What would He say? No? Wait 'till you die, then I'll forgive you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 jessussaves, The answer lies in the Catholic teaching of 'purgatory'. Despite what ignorant Catholics will tell you, 'purgatory' is not really a place, but a state of existence that describes our purging of the effects our our minor sins. Based on the assumption that we have to become pure to be with God in heaven, we are being purged of the effects of our sins. Only Mortal sins keep us out from Heaven, and these sins are described and intentionally choosing to do Wrong in Serious and Grave Matters with full intent of will. Overeating is not that huge a deal and is a habit, not a conscience decision everytime you get a twinkie. It is overly legalistic to think that every little sin carries the same weight and punishment as a huge sin, done with full intent to do wrong. If humanity can roughly figure out justice to mete out different punishments for petty theft as compared to armed bank robbers, I'm sure God can figure out fair justice to deal with overeaters and those who purposely choose to pursue evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carrdero Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) [b]Small Sins[/b] There are no small sins, just small sinners. Edited March 7, 2007 by carrdero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesussaves Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) I would submit that one never truly commits to never sin again. They at best lie to themselves that they don't want to. Which is probably another sin, grave even. Also, I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed. Edited March 7, 2007 by jesussaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesussaves Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 therein lies the rub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 [quote name='jesussaves' post='1209910' date='Mar 7 2007, 03:42 PM']I would submit that one never truly commits to never sin again. They at best lie to themselves that they don't want to. Which is probably another sin, grave even. Also, I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed.[/quote] No, we can in fact committ not to sin a again and make efforts not to do so. It is not a lie to make such a committment. In our weakness we will sin however. That does not mean our desire not to was a lie. Over time, one can reduce the desire for sin and even hate sin. The danger of venial sins is that they lead to mortal sins and so they must be weeded out of the garden of our souls. Unforgiven venial sins will land one in purgatory. Those in purgatory will have seen God at judgement and will be sorry for any sins they have committed. No flaw at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesussaves Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 By the definitions proffered by people here and that I have seen, purgatory does not involve the forgiveness of venial sins. So again: I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesussaves Posted March 12, 2007 Author Share Posted March 12, 2007 Also, even if you could be forgiven simply for the intention to be forgiven, it would have to be a legal argument. You are not being forgiven for who you are, because you will surely sin again. The Catholic Church then either agrees with legal theory, or it is wrong. For the reasons in the last post namely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 The part your missing is that at the end of life we will face the great confesser. We will see Jesus Christ and know how our sins have wounded him. He will forgive any unforgiven venial sins that we might have BEFORE entry in to purgatory. Mortal sins will cause the soul, which has made a habit of turning from him turn once more to the eternal flames. The theologians who wrote the Catechism are no dumies and your question is not beyond their knowledge. It is beyond yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesussaves Posted March 13, 2007 Author Share Posted March 13, 2007 You didn't address what happens if you intend to commit venial sins again. According to the Catholic Church, venial sins will not get you into hell. According to everyone, you have to be forgvin to get into heaven. So, if you have those venial sins that are unforgiven, you can't get into heaven, and you will be in hell. Purgatory doesn't forgive sins, only purifies according to the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 (edited) Um. Yes, that's exactly what I addressed. It's called judgement day. We meet Jesus at the moment of death in the great confession. That's not purgatory. If we have unforgiven sins they will be forgiven by him. We seeing him in all his glory will repent of everything. The advantage of having them forgiven beforehand is that one can have the temporal punishment expunged before then and the awaking of our guilt is not quite so rude. Edited March 13, 2007 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 13, 2007 Share Posted March 13, 2007 [quote name='jesussaves' post='1210058' date='Mar 7 2007, 10:11 PM']By the definitions proffered by people here and that I have seen, purgatory does not involve the forgiveness of venial sins. So again: I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed.[/quote] Spiritual life is not a static proposition, you are going one way or another . Venial sins damage your relationship with God. If you keep damaging your relationship repeatedly sooner or later the relationship is gone. Venial sins are the slippy slope leading to mortal sins. A small lie becomes a bigger lie, a small theft of a pen becomes the bigger theft of money. A disregard towards your fellow driver becomes enjoyed road rage and you ram someone's car and they die. If you deliberately keep committing small sins the bigs ones follow and you will have chosen hell. So stealing a pen today can lead to hell, because behavior is a road in one direction or another. HAve you read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesussaves Posted March 13, 2007 Author Share Posted March 13, 2007 That's quite an assumption to make, that you're going to commit a mortal sin eventually if you choose to comit venial always. It would seem to me that a person could content themself with their small flaws and not intend to fix them, just stay as they are. If I'm correct there's a flaw. If you're correct, there's not a flaw because my situation cannot occur. I think your assumption is flawed, and unfounded, as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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