The Tabernacle And New Testament Salvation

[FullTruth]

Peter on the day of Pentecost said we were to repent first, be baptized second, and we would recieve the gift of the holy ghost. (Acts 2:38)

Repentance = asking for forgiveness.
Baptism = Remission of sins, or washing away of sins.
Infilling of the holy ghost = being filled with the spirit of God.

Since everything in the new testament is the fulfillement of the old testament, is there anything process similar in the Old Testament?

Yes - the Tabernacle.

[img]http://www.the-tabernacle-place.com/images/tabernacle_drawing.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.the-tabernacle-place.com/images/tabernacle_layout.jpg[/img]

Sin offering at the altar first = asking for forgiveness.
Laver of Water = Priest washes himself from sin.
Holy of Holies = The place God's spirit resides.

Who would like to discuss the differences between the Roman Catholic Faith and this basic way to salvation?

[Maggyie]

I don't know how the Catholic faith differs from the order of 1. Repentance 2. Baptism 3. Reception of the Holy Spirit. Except that we do frequently have to repent after baptism, because we sin again. But I think pretty much everybody commits sins after Baptism, and has to be sorry. The Holy Spirit doesn't prevent one from falling, if one really wills to fall.

1. Do non-Catholics never sin after baptism?
2. Are people saved even if they aren't sorry for their sins, if at some point in the past they were baptized?
3. If someone commits a sin is it a sign that they never had the Holy Spirit and that their baptism didn't "take"?

These are rhetorical questions, I'm not trying to be flippant, I just don't know what you mean by how our order is different from the "basic way of salvation."

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1207877' date='Mar 4 2007, 05:08 PM']I don't know how the Catholic faith differs from the order of 1. Repentance 2. Baptism 3. Reception of the Holy Spirit. Except that we do frequently have to repent after baptism, because we sin again. But I think pretty much everybody commits sins after Baptism, and has to be sorry. The Holy Spirit doesn't prevent one from falling, if one really wills to fall.

1. Do non-Catholics never sin after baptism?
2. Are people saved even if they aren't sorry for their sins, if at some point in the past they were baptized?
3. If someone commits a sin is it a sign that they never had the Holy Spirit and that their baptism didn't "take"?

These are rhetorical questions, I'm not trying to be flippant, I just don't know what you mean by how our order is different from the "basic way of salvation."[/quote]
Catholics practiced enfant Baptism. What baby needs to repent, in order to accept baptism?

Does an infant need to be baptized to be saved? No they do not. Infants are saved through a parents dedication to the Lord, until they come to the day of accountability. I would say that day would be knowing mom and dad are boss, and you should obey them. Then they should be able to repent of their sins, even if it is disobeying mom and dad, and be baptized. I can give some scriptural proof to this, if you would like.

Some Catholics would say I am a 'Heretic' for believing and actually saying this. That's okay. Jesus was called the devil on the earth as well.

So in my point of view, Catholics practice Baptism, Repentance, and infilling, where I totally believe someone needs to repent, then be baptized and then they are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Edited March 4, 2007 by FullTruth

[Maggyie]

While the baby is not itself guilty of sin, it is born with original sin inherited from Adam and Eve (I don't know what your position is on original sin). This needs to be washed away, for as the Lord says in John 3:5, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” He did not say, "Except for babies."

An echo of infant baptism can be seen in the Old Testament.

[quote]Genesis 17:9-14:

12He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
13 both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."[/quote]

Obviously the eight-day-old babies could not choose to accept the Covenant with God. Nevertheless, they were circumcised by their parents. This step was recognized as necessary.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1208014' date='Mar 4 2007, 07:43 PM']While the baby is not itself guilty of sin, it is born with original sin inherited from Adam and Eve (I don't know what your position is on original sin). This needs to be washed away, for as the Lord says in John 3:5, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” He did not say, "Except for babies."

An echo of infant baptism can be seen in the Old Testament.
Obviously the eight-day-old babies could not choose to accept the Covenant with God. Nevertheless, they were circumcised by their parents. This step was recognized as necessary.[/quote]
My position of the original sin is that - all have sinned and need to come to [b]repentance[/b]. Babies can't repent.

Yes, infant circumcistion is one of the few ideas that do support infant baptism.

But at the same time, the Tabernacle shows there is also a different way, and so did Peter when he preached on the day of Pentecost.

Even John the Baptists Baptism was for repentance. I think somebody should feel the need to be baptized before they get baptized, and it should be the moving of the holy ghost in their heart to tell them they need to be baptized.

It's true that baptism is equated as the circumcision of the heart in the new testament, and you can use that arguement to say - Babies were circumcised without understanding, so babies can be baptized before understanding as well.

However, I think the infant baptism is a shadow of the the 'NEW BIRTH' experience, that you repent (You start your NEW LIFE), and then are born again (circumision of the heart) of the water and are immediately filled with the holy ghost.

I would say I am only 9 christ years old, so I am young in the lord, despite the fact I am 32 years old.

Edited March 5, 2007 by FullTruth