America's Vaticrats Wish You Happy National Migration Week!

[Budge]

They all speak of the poor ignoring the poor working class and others in America whose children or maybe NOW, are going to be competing for jobs with people who will work for a dollar an hour. Say goodbye to the Middle Class! Say goodbye to people even being able to provide sustinance level living to their families. The whole country can turn into the poor parts of LA, where disease, rampant gangs and more run the show. I left a town where 40 year old men are living with their mothers because there are absolutely NO JOBS, half the factories have moved to Mexico or overseas.

I know of Catholics who have left Rome alone over, this, and it is enough. Something else that proves to me that apostolic succession is a fantasty a house of cards based on false authority that should come down!

[url="http://www.vdare.com/walker/060111_migration.htm"]http://www.vdare.com/walker/060111_migration.htm[/url]
[quote]
January 11, 2006
America's Vaticrats Wish You Happy National Migration Week!

[Peter Brimelow writes: VDARE.COM’s Christmas Meditations have all been written by Catholics and we’ve carried a number of articles by Catholics challenging the immigration stance of their own Bishops (for example here and here). For some reason, we’ve never succeeded in getting any Protestant immigration patriots to fulfill assignments to criticize their own churches—which are equally awful, although perhaps not as outrageous—but National Migration Week was too good a target for one non-observant Protestant to miss).

By Brenda Walker
[b]In a cathedral near you, open-border-loving Catholics may be even now celebrating their annual National Migration Week (January 8-14). The occasion is not as spectacularly colorful as, say, Groundhog Day (February 2), but it does function as a handy organizing device for shredding American sovereignty.
[/b]
These days, job one for Catholic hierarchy—one of the loudest voices for open borders—is to destroy the Sensenbrenner bill (HR 4437), in which the U.S. House of Representatives took the first small steps toward retrieving immigration from chaos.

The New York Times reports that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has "called on President Bush to oppose the measure publicly." [Bill on Illegal-Immigrant Aid Draws Fire, December 30, 2005, By Rachel L. Swarns]

Bishop Gerald Barnes of San Bernardino launched a major salvo by writing to Congress, "The legislation would place parish, diocesan and social service program staff at risk of criminal prosecution simply for performing their jobs."

A Washington Times editorial responded pointedly that there is no such provision in the legislation: it targets alien smuggling rings.

In other words, don't expect the Bishops to tell the truth about immigration.
[b]
Forget all the fake piety and good-works nonsense. Immigration is entirely a self-interest project with Vaticrats, particularly to populate empty pews. According to the National Conference of Catholic Bishops Office of Hispanic Affairs, Hispanics accounted for 71 percent of the growth in the U.S. Catholic Church from 1960 to 1999.[/b]
[b]
Many rank-and-file Catholics have become displeased with the world-class hypocrisy of an institution that has protected pervert priests for decades, but condemns to hell anyone who uses birth control. Apparently, as good authoritarians, the Catholic hierarchy prefers passively obedient parishioners—rather than educated Americans who are capable of critical analysis. Credulous Mexicans fresh from the pueblo are seen as ideal fillers of pews.[/b]

Immigration's unforgiving math looks good to the Catholic Bishops. By holding the door open, they hasten the day when America will become a majority Catholic country, probably later this century if Hispanic immigration continues at its current rate.

Throughout its history, the United States has been a Protestant nation. That culture is reflected in the choices made by the Founders in shaping the country. As Professor Samuel Huntington, the master analyst of culture and critic of Mexican immigration, has observed:

"If America had been settled not by British Protestants but by French, Spanish, or Portuguese Catholics, it would not be America; it would be Quebec, Mexico, or Brazil."

Now America is being resettled via immigration that is reversing the culture which built one of history's most successful societies. The progress-prone values of Americans are being displaced by members of progress-resistant cultures—in the compelling analysis of Prof. Lawrence Harrison—and the results are seen in shocking rates of school dropouts among Hispanic high schoolers, elevated crime and gender violence.
[b]
Some in the Church have been so bold as to speak openly of a "peaceful conquest" by Mexican Catholics whom they prefer to America's current residents:

"...America is a dying nation. I tell the Mexicans when I am down in Mexico to keep on having children, and then to take back what we took from them: California, Texas, Arizona, and then to take the rest of the country as well." (The Wanderer, St. Paul, MN May 6, 1987, citing Father Paul Marx)[/b]

The immigration strategy of the Catholic Council of Bishops is as much a subversive enterprise as that of La Raza, but the church designation saves them from the opprobrium they deserve.

Let us not forget that the Catholic Church in America is still in the middle of a multi-year legal struggle, fighting against the victims of sexual abuse by pedophile priests, as it tries to avoid financial collapse. Payouts in the Los Angeles Diocese alone could surpass $1 billion. The Portland Diocese declared bankruptcy in 2004.

The diminished respect Americans have for the Catholic Church is shown by late-night television commentary:
bullet "The House Transportation Committee is now considering a bill that would allow pilots to carry guns for protection. I've got a better idea, why not give guns to altar boys, give them a fighting chance." — Jay Leno

bullet "In Boston, it looks like Cardinal Bernard Law isn't going to be punished. It turns out he's getting transferred to Rome, which is kind of like a promotion. He said today he wanted to thank all the little people." — Jay Leno

bullet "The Catholic Church is finally cracking down. Here's the deal now: if a priest is transferred to another parish, he cannot take his live-in boyfriend." — David Letterman

And yet the Vaticrats still act like they have moral authority. In their spiritual arrogance, they continue to scold law-abiding American citizens who merely insist that immigration be legal, controlled and reduced.

The Church drones on about "welcoming to the stranger," one of its beloved catch-phrases and a rare reference to scripture, [VDARE.COM note: see Matthew 25, " I was a stranger, and ye took me in" but compare Deuteronomy28:43-44; "The stranger that [is] within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low"] though it seems uninterested in Jesus' admonition to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

Many Catholic priests obviously regard immigration as a right, not a privilege granted by the American people. In Brownsville, the Church busied itself in September with attacking Texas Minutemen, whose only sin was protecting their country.

Organizing in conjunction with the Catholic Church makes sense because the church’s position is pro-immigration, said Father Michael Seifert of San Felipe de Jesús.

"Any family in economic need has a right to immigrate, that's our posture, if a family is hungry and the family needs work, then society should provide a way for people to do that," Seifert said. [Church organizing anti-Minuteman campaign, By Sara Inés Calderón, The Brownsville Herald September 5, 2005]

Since there are literally billions of people "in economic need" across the world, following the Church's teaching would result in political, economic and social anarchy that would make Camp of the Saints look like Disneyland. On a crowded planet of six billion souls, genuine humanitarians should work in the home countries to improve lives.

In addition to its part in Catholicizing America, the Church also benefits by raking in big money for providing "immigrant" services. As a result of faith-based dispensation of money, Migrant and Refugee Services receives more than $40 million in taxpayer funds (according to a sizable PDF report on the USCCB's website, see a screen snap here).

As a modern social services provider, the Church celebrates diversity (and follows non-discrimination laws) by resettling a variety of refugees, from shamanist Hmong to Muslim Somalis. Catholic Charities is in the forefront of repopulating America with immigrants, some of whom are so extremely diverse that they may not become self-supporting in their lifetimes.

It's not like there are no important challenges for the Vatican to tackle. Given the threat which radical Islam constitutes for Christianity and western civilization, the Holy See might usefully spend more time explaining the danger of the coming Muslim Europe, aka Eurabia (another demographic idiocy). There is some good news on this front, since the new Pope is apparently more realistic about Islam than his Koran-kissing predecessor. Pope Benedict has spoken more forcefully against terrorism than John Paul II, a welcome change.

Here in the United States, the Conference of Catholic Bishops has a leftist, open-borders agenda. But that’s at odds with their counterparts in Europe, where many immigrants are unfriendly Sons of Allah. Cardinal Biffi caused a controversy in 2000 when he recommended that Italy "protect its national identity" and give preference to Catholic immigrants over Muslim ones.

Imagine if the U.S. suggested immigration policies that safeguarded America's historical national identity.

For that matter, the Catholic Church is not only a religion, but also an independent state with geography (Vatican City—.44 sq km), a flag and an American ambassador (Francis Rooney). But there's no immigration into the tiny territory.

Sadly, the close of Migration Week will not bring an end to the anti-borders activities of the cassock brigade.
[b]
Perhaps some patriotic friends of sovereignty might show up at the local cathedral to defend the moral high ground against the hypocrites—just as the anti-pedophile protestors did a few years back. A stronger statement of disapproval is overdue.

As its actions have shown, the American Catholic Church is just another special interest group with an immigration agenda damaging to the common good. [/b][/quote]

This is Irrendentism, conquest by illegal immigration and the Catholic Church supports the damage to America and Americans.

Ever notice none of them ever confront Mexico's corruption or having Mexico change its way? They are all in with the Mexican Oligarchy.

I dont blame the people they are mere pawns.

[N/A Gone]

I wonder what can fuel someone to hate so much; grabbing at anything they can just in an attempt to self-justify

[Maggyie]

Trust me when I say that I do not like illegal immigration, either. It upsets me to see people just running across our border, as one sees in videos on the news.

But I think your post is really off the mark. The problem with the immigration debate is that people tend to get hysterical on both sides. Anyone who doesn't want amnesty gets shouted down as "racist," while on the other hand there are dire predictions that Americans can "Say goodbye to the Middle Class! Say goodbye to people even being able to provide sustinance level living to their families." [i]When you're nervous and in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout, "We're all gonna die, we're all gonna die!"[/i] This, incidentally, is a mantra that has been repeated throughout periods of increased immigration in our history. The WASPs didn't like Irish and Italian Catholic immigrants. either.

I also don't think it's accurate to say that the Catholic bishops are ignoring the poor working class, nor have they ever. If you know a little bit about the Catholic Church's relationship with organized labor you recognize this. If Catholics have left the Church over this, they are putting their political opinions above spiritual concerns. Leaving the Church over the USCCB opinion on immigration, housing, or the best way to remove lint is a failure to put first things first.

Anecdotal evidence is never accurate. The unemployment rate in the US is extremely low, in spite of the millions of illegal immigrants already working here. The 40-year-old men living with their mothers probably have other problems. Or perhaps it's your particular area that's circling the economic drain. I myself was able to get a job recently on the same day I started looking; I didn't even go down to the business - last Thursday I just called and I was immediately given a position, making well above minimum wage.

In the article you posted, this paragraph

[quote]Apparently, as good authoritarians, the Catholic hierarchy prefers passively obedient parishioners—rather than educated Americans who are capable of critical analysis. Credulous Mexicans fresh from the pueblo are seen as ideal fillers of pews.[/quote]and this paragraph

[quote]Now America is being resettled via immigration that is reversing the culture which built one of history's most successful societies. The progress-prone values of Americans are being displaced by members of progress-resistant cultures—in the compelling analysis of Prof. Lawrence Harrison—and the results are seen in shocking rates of school dropouts among Hispanic high schoolers, elevated crime and gender violence.[/quote]
and the continued use of the term "Vaticrat" are not even worthy of a response. This article was not written as a thoughtful commentary seeking to illuminate and persuade readers. I imagine it will have the opposite effect; it certainly did with me. It was an angry, hateful rant seeking to stir up more anger (not indignation) and hate in the hearts of readers. Evil calls out to evil.

The fact that the article spends so much time on the sexual abuse crisis amuses me, especially since it has nothing to do with the immigration issue. I notice that when the Church is speaking out on abortion, it is the leftists who bring up how the Church now supposedly has no "moral authority." As a matter of fact, moral authority is all the power the Church has. Those who are pitching such a fit about Catholics being unwilling to let their brothers and sisters in Christ become isolated in a strange country would do better to direct their anger at the government officials who are not protecting the border, WHICH IS THEIR JOB. Feeding people, housing people, and comforting people with the sacraments is the Church's job.

The article writer's use of jokes from late night TV are a good indicator of the caliber of her argument. That's what this article is, a joke.

I know a lot of people in my real life who object to the "Church line" on this issue, but I am able to debate the problems with them on a dignified and respectful basis, without anybody questioning the other person's motives.

Immigration is a serious issue, and it deserves a much better discussion than this. I certainly understand that you are frustrated, many people are. But I also hope you understand that the article you posted does not serve your cause at all. There are surely much more worthy defenses of your position.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Maggie

[Budge]

How come none of your bishops call for Mexico to fix ITSELF?

The corruption of the oligarchy in Mexico isnt even mentioned.

Do me a favor and google MEXICAN BILLIONAIRE.

Mexico is not a poor country as many believe.

[quote]while on the other hand there are dire predictions that Americans can "Say goodbye to the Middle Class! Say goodbye to people even being able to provide sustinance level living to their families." When you're nervous and in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout, "We're all gonna die, we're all gonna die!" This, incidentally, is a mantra that has been repeated throughout periods of increased immigration in our history. The WASPs didn't like Irish and Italian Catholic immigrants. either.[/quote]Things are different now. The numbers are far far higher. The immigrants used to assimilate also, learning English instead of keeping to their own culture. We are at the point where in the SouthWest the infrastructure is being overtaken, there is a reason California can barely keep the lights on. Ever been to LA and seen what life is like there in the ghetto? Ever been in a ghetto before with a huge immigrant population and seen the gangs flashing colors that you know you must stay out of the way of if you want to stay alive and seen the sweat shops? {Americans dont realize they are running sweat shops not just out in the fields but big cities as well}

The bishops dont give a care at all for the poor working class American, who is going to PAY BIG and are paying big now.

I left over the fact of doctrine first, but Romes BAD horrible politics were on the list as well, promotion of the socialist United Nations, tied at the hip with European elites, the desire to support ATZLAN conquest of the American Southwest and more. The terrible politics are enough to show the bad fruits of Rome.
[quote]
Anecdotal evidence is never accurate. The unemployment rate in the US is extremely low, in spite of the millions of illegal immigrants already working here.[/quote]

Where do you get that from?

The unemployment rate does not count everyone that is out of work.

In fact once a person gives up looking or is underemployed part time at McDonalds, they no longer appear on the rolls.

[quote]
The 40-year-old men living with their mothers probably have other problems. Or perhaps it's your particular area that's circling the economic drain. I myself was able to get a job recently on the same day I started looking; I didn't even go down to the business - last Thursday I just called and I was immediately given a position, making well above minimum wage.[/quote]So you were fortunate, but working class people in American, are having a far harder time getting employment.
[quote]
The fact that the article spends so much time on the sexual abuse crisis amuses me, especially since it has nothing to do with the immigration issue.[/quote]

I think it does,

The sex abuse scandal happened because of bishops wanting to preserve power and reputation.

The support of immigration is also about power because they will benefit from more Mexican Catholics filling pews in America.

Here is a question, why isnt anyone calling for Mexico to GET ITS ACT TOGETHER?

[FullTruth]

I love how they say Apostolic Succession, and yet the fail to observe the most basic Apostolic Doctrine, that everybody in your church should go from home to home breaking bread.

If the church actually bothered to do that, more people might start thinking about God and church, because they would see it as a way to connect with friends and family.

Over half my friends are people that attend the church I started my Christian walk in. And every time we go to Wendys, or Pizza Hut, people see us, and I don't know how many families start their Christian walk because they see us fellowshipping.

As a Libertarian, I think Mexicans should stay in their own country and try to earn a living there. They shouldn't be taking Jobs from people of another nation.

Edited March 4, 2007 by FullTruth

[Colleen]

Vaticrats? That's a new one.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207815' date='Mar 4 2007, 03:04 PM'][quote]Things are different now. The numbers are far far higher. The immigrants used to assimilate also, learning English instead of keeping to their own culture.
We are at the point where in the SouthWest the infrastructure is being overtaken, there is a reason California can barely keep the lights on. Ever been to LA and seen what life is like there in the ghetto? Ever been in a ghetto before with a huge immigrant population and seen the gangs flashing colors that you know you must stay out of the way of if you want to stay alive and seen the sweat shops? {Americans dont realize they are running sweat shops not just out in the fields but big cities as well}[/quote]

Again, this has all happened before. Little Italy, Chinatown, Little Havanna... these were (are) all ghettos. And English was probably the last language spoken there. Immigrants tend to settle among each other so that they have a support system in the new country. Cherished cultural traditions get protected this way as well; I am a quarter's worth of Irish and we still celebrate St. Patrick's day to the hilt. We have a ton of traditions from the German strain in our family, too. That doesn't mean we didn't assimilate the positive aspects of American culture. If you spend a substantial amount of time with immigrant Latino families, you will find that the vast majority are eager to learn English and to assimilate. Trust me, they LOVE much of American culture, especially the young people.

The sweat-shop situation has occurred before, too. There were [url="http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/trianglefire/narrative2.html"]a lot of them[/url] in the USA after the Industrial Revolution. Ever hear of the [url="http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/trianglefire/narrative1.html"]Triangle Factory Fire[/url]? It claimed the lives of 146 immigrant workers back in 1911. The resulting publicity resulted in a whole lot of labor reform.

[quote]The bishops dont give a care at all for the poor working class American, who is going to PAY BIG and are paying big now. [/quote]I don't understand how you can say such a thing. Have you ever had a private conversation on the subject with a Catholic bishop? A public one? How do you know what is in their hearts? Many bishops' remarks on immigration talk about the necessity of protecting American jobs. I don't think you understand that the working class is where the Catholics are. Unions are heavily Catholic. Most of the bishops come from working class families. Etc. etc.

[quote]
I left over the fact of doctrine first, but Romes BAD horrible politics were on the list as well, promotion of the socialist United Nations, tied at the hip with European elites, the desire to support ATZLAN conquest of the American Southwest and more. The terrible politics are enough to show the bad fruits of Rome.[/quote]

It annoys me when the Vatican praises the UN a lot, but that is my political opinion showing. They criticize the UN a great deal, too. There have been various Vatican statements about the need for reform. I also don't think one can honestly say that Rome is joined at the hip with European elites when they are constantly at odds with countries like Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium over euthanasia, with the EU over abortion, with Italian politicians over gay marriage. There is practically an undeclared war between the Vatican and the socialist government in Spain.
[quote]
Where do you get that from?

The unemployment rate does not count everyone that is out of work.

In fact once a person gives up looking or is underemployed part time at McDonalds, they no longer appear on the rolls.

So you were fortunate, but working class people in American, are having a far harder time getting employment.[/quote]The unemployment rate is currently [url="http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm"]4.6 percent[/url]. It was [url="ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/news.release/History/empsit.02032006.news"]4.7 percent[/url] in January of 2006, [url="ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/news.release/History/empsit.02042005.news"]5.2 percent[/url] in January of 2005 and [url="ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/news.release/History/empsit.02062004.news"]5.6 percent[/url] in January 2004. That's a decrease of one full percent in three years.

If by "working class" you mean people who traditionally work in manufacturing, then you are correct that jobs are becoming more scarce. That is not because illegal aliens or anyone else is taking the jobs. We are transitioning from an industrial economy to a service economy. People like me who are looking for work in service occupations - housekeepers, home aides, mechanics, sales, repairs, electricians, etc - are finding it. Planning a career in manufacturing in 2007 is like choosing to enter the horse buggy repair business in 1903. No one is "taking" the blue color manufacturing jobs from Americans, other than the march of history. The factories are just closing.

[quote]I think it does,

The sex abuse scandal happened because of bishops wanting to preserve power and reputation.

The support of immigration is also about power because they will benefit from more Mexican Catholics filling pews in America.

Here is a question, why isnt anyone calling for Mexico to GET ITS ACT TOGETHER?[/quote]

The Latino populations are not wealthy. The bishops aren't going to be living high on the hog on the tithing from people in low-wage jobs, that's for sure. The increases in population also put a strain on priests and Catholic social services. And quite obviously the bishops' desire to help immigrants doesn't add anything in the prestige department, since it draws fire from individuals who think that in offering a hand to their brothers and sisters in Christ they are breaking the law. The USCCB has said several times that the root causes of illegal immigration - Mexico's economic troubles - [url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2005/05-167.shtml"]need to be addressed.[/url]

Edited March 4, 2007 by Maggie

[Budge]

[quote]
As a Libertarian, I think Mexicans should stay in their own country and try to earn a living there. They shouldn't be taking Jobs from people of another nation.[/quote]I agree.

There are women and families left in Mexico begging for their men to come back and labor shortages in their villages that is getting very acute.

Ive read 1 in 10 Mexicans is now in America. Thats a problem.

Why cant Mexico fix its own problems?
[quote]

Again, this has all happened before. Little Italy, Chinatown, Little Havanna... these were (are) all ghettos. And English was probably the last language spoken there. Immigrants tend to settle among each other so that they have a support system in the new country. Cherished cultural traditions get protected this way as well; I am a quarter's worth of Irish and we still celebrate St. Patrick's day to the hilt. We have a ton of traditions from the German strain in our family, too. That doesn't mean we didn't assimilate the positive aspects of American culture. If you spend a substantial amount of time with immigrant Latino families, you will find that the vast majority are eager to learn English and to assimilate. Trust me, they LOVE much of American culture, especially the young people.[/quote]

Heres the problem, before we had an open country to fill up, with the expansion of the West, immigrants formed a lot of the groups that migrated to the west, today we dont. Adding millions of people to a population that is already getting too concentrated in some areas, is a recipie for disaster.
[quote]
The sweat-shop situation has occurred before, too. There were a lot of them in the USA after the Industrial Revolution. Ever hear of the Triangle Factory Fire? It claimed the lives of 146 immigrant workers back in 1911. The resulting publicity resulted in a whole lot of labor reform.[/quote]So who wants it again? I lived in a big city right next to a Mexican neighborhood, I SAW the sweat shops for myself and knew some of the people who worked in them. While us poor people slogged off to our 10 hour days, bus plus 8 hours they worked 16 hour days.

You dont think there people who are PROFITING off all this cheap labor, this way they dont have to pay Americans anything and can exploit the Mexicans. The elites WIN, everyone else loses. Why support this rotten system? BTW I saw other things like , seeing 30 Mexicans all living together in a 3 bedroom house. You ever live on the same street with gangs, and hearing gunshots at night? I have, I bet if I took you back to this neighborhood I lived in thankfully for a very short time, youd lose all romantic notions about immigration in one night.

Heres another secret for you, the Mexicans who came here LEGALLY and who have built good lives, are AGAINST illegal immigration. Why? Because they will lose jobs, and opportunites as well.

[quote]
I don't understand how you can say such a thing. Have you ever had a private conversation on the subject with a Catholic bishop? A public one? How do you know what is in their hearts? Many bishops' remarks on immigration talk about the necessity of protecting American jobs. I don't think you understand that the working class is where the Catholics are. Unions are heavily Catholic. Most of the bishops come from working class families. Etc. etc.[/quote]

How many bishops hang out with the regular people having discussions? Sure Ill get one on the phone right now...heheheheh

Catholics are BEING HURT by their own bishops, all those working class people who are watching their jobs go poof or down to Mexico....by this stuff. This is something you need to understand, it isnt just poor white and black Protestants, Christians and other religions who will suffer, it will be SOME OF YOU GUYS TOO.

You think your bishops are REALLY LOOKING OUT FOR YOU? No they are looking at their own bottom line!
[quote]
It annoys me when the Vatican praises the UN a lot, but that is my political opinion showing.[/quote]Well you should listen to the little voice inside you that is bothered by this.

The Vatican even donated money to the international world court and more, while the Catholic Church gives some platitudes out about abortion and euthanasia, they support the erosion of freedom and these world government institutions that desire power. Remember no one votes for the leaders of the UN.

[quote]If by "working class" you mean people who traditionally work in manufacturing, then you are correct that jobs are becoming more scarce. That is not because illegal aliens or anyone else is taking the jobs. We are transitioning from an industrial economy to a service economy. People like me who are looking for work in service occupations - housekeepers, home aides, mechanics, sales, repairs, electricians, etc - are finding it. Planning a career in manufacturing in 2007 is like choosing to enter the horse buggy repair business in 1903. No one is "taking" the blue color manufacturing jobs from Americans, other than the march of history. The factories are just closing.[/quote]

The service people are losing jobs. If an illegal immigrant will work for 1 dollar an hour, what hope for the American who needs 6 an hour {and even that barely pays the bills}

Any country that closes down its manufacturing is in decline, but that is an issue for another thread.

[quote]The Latino populations are not wealthy.[/quote]

and there is a reason for that, corruption, corruption, corruption. Try starting a small business in Mexico, see how much graft is required, this keeps the rich rich, and everyone else poor. I dare say I see the Catholic system in Latin America as having been part of this problem. They either support the rich or lead useless socialist movements via Liberation Theology.

You need to ask yourself why the bishops do not care about American Catholics, especially those in lower socio-economic classes who are competing for the same jobs.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Budge

[Maggyie]

[quote]Heres the problem, before we had an open country to fill up, with the expansion of the West, immigrants formed a lot of the groups that migrated to the west, today we dont. Adding millions of people to a population that is already getting too concentrated in some areas, is a recipie for disaster[/quote]If you like Libertarian thought, you will enjoy [url="http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6729"]this piece[/url] published on the Cato Institute's homepage. The author writes:

[quote]One day this month an immigrant will arrive or, more likely, a baby will be born who will make the United States a nation of 300 million. This demographic milestone has prompted hand-ringing among environmentalists on the left and immigration opponents on the right, all of whom are misguided. Passing the 300 million mark should be cause for celebration: Never in the history of mankind have so many people lived such free and prosperous lives in one country...

...Even at 300 million, the United States is not "overpopulated." We remain a vast country with lots (and lots) of open space. One need only gaze out the window at 30,000 feet while flying cross-country to appreciate how much of America remains rural or unpopulated. We could give every American household an acre of land and still fit all 300 million of us in the states of Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri—with the rest of the country set aside as one giant national park.

Nor is the United States suffering a "population explosion." In fact, our nation's population growth has been slowing in recent decades. Since 1900, population has grown at an average annual rate of 1.31 percent. But in the past 15 years, the growth rate has slowed to 1.16 percent, and since 2000 the rate has slipped to just below 1 percent. Immigrants help America maintain a steady rate of growth.[/quote]

Populations become concentrated because of employment opportunities. The "high density" areas tend to lose population as jobs shift elsewhere. The city nearest me, Cleveland, has been losing population for years.

[quote]So who wants it again? I lived in a big city right next to a Mexican neighborhood, I SAW the sweat shops for myself and knew some of the people who worked in them. While us poor people slogged off to our 10 hour days, bus plus 8 hours they worked 16 hour days.

You dont think there people who are PROFITING off all this cheap labor, this way they dont have to pay Americans anything and can exploit the Mexicans. The elites WIN, everyone else loses.
Why support this rotten system? BTW I saw other things like , seeing 30 Mexicans all living together in a 3 bedroom house. You ever live on the same street with gangs, and hearing gunshots at night? I have, I bet if I took you back to this neighborhood I lived in when I was a big city social worker, youd think twice, about how romantic immigration is.
[/quote]You are correct that big corporations are really hitting huge profits by exploiting immigrants. I certainly don't mind heavy fines for employers that use illegal labor or pay below the minimum wage. The horrific conditions immigrants live in are in many respects the result of the illegality of their presence. Crimes are not reported and landlords get away with stuffing 30 people into one house because the poor people can not complain to the authorities or risk being arrested themselves. If we had something like a guest worker program these conditions could be alleviated.

[quote]How many bishops hang out with the regular people having discussions? Sure Ill get one on the phone right now...heheheheh

Catholics are BEING HURT by their own bishops, all those working class people who are watching their jobs go poof or down to Mexico....by this stuff. This is something you need to understand, it isnt just poor white and black Protestants, Christians and other religions who will suffer, it will be SOME OF YOU GUYS TOO.[/quote]

I think you would be surprised how accessible many bishops are, particularly in smaller dioceses. I understand that many people are worried about the negative economic effects of immigration. Again, I repeat, the working class is very, very Catholic.

[quote]Well you should listen to the little voice inside you that is bothered by this.

The Vatican even donated money to the international world court and more, while the Catholic Church gives some platitudes out about abortion and euthanasia, they support the erosion of freedom and these world government institutions that desire power. Remember no one votes for the leaders of the UN.[/quote]Actually, this conversation of ours has forced me to re-examine my attitudes about immigration, which are very conservative. I think I might have to change my mind about some things. I don't think the Vatican wants a one-world government or anything like that. You forget that the Vatican itself is a sovereign nation. Why would it want to do away with its own sovereignty? Rome feels that the United Nations can play an important role in securing the peace and promoting human rights. It probably could, if heavily reformed.

[quote]and there is a reason for that, corruption, corruption, corruption. Try starting a small business in Mexico, see how much graft is required, this keeps the rich rich, and everyone else poor. I dare say I see the Catholic system in Latin America as having been part of this problem. They either support the rich or lead useless socialist movements via Liberation Theology.[/quote]

Well, which is it? Do the bishops love the rich or are they socialists? One can't be both. The economic systems which have broken down so badly are not "Catholic systems;" they aren't based on Catholic theology at all. They would be much fairer if they were. The situation has a lot to do with the governments defaulting on their debts, which started with Mexico itself in '82. But that is a complex topic all by itself.

[quote]You need to ask yourself why the bishops do not care about American Catholics, especially those in lower socio-economic classes who are competing for the same jobs.
[/quote]I don't understand why you keep saying that the bishops do not care about American Catholics. They are American Catholics themselves. Most of them come from the lower socio-economic classes. I'm pretty sure each and every one of them is hoping the US government will find a way to help immigrants while protecting American labor.
[quote]
You think your bishops are REALLY LOOKING OUT FOR YOU? No they are looking at their own bottom line![/quote]

How do the bishops benefit financially from immigration? The immigrants themselves are usually very poor, although they are better off than the folks in the old country. Funds from the government go to Catholic Charities Inc. The Archbishop of Galveston-Houston isn't going to be buying any new gold chalices with federal grants.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]How come none of your bishops call for Mexico to fix ITSELF?

The corruption of the oligarchy in Mexico isnt even mentioned.[/quote]

Picture this, Budge. An illegal immigrant comes to your church. He is extremely poor and when he was in Mexico he lived in appalling circumstances. He wants a better quality of life - clean water, perhaps. Do you tell 'it' (after all, Mexico is a giant monolithic lump that needs to fix ITSELF according to you - let's not talk about subtleties like human beings) all about the oligarchal corruption and how 'it' needs to go back home and fix it, in your best preaching style? Or do you welcome him and show him compassion, even though he has acted in breach of the law?

Organisations like CAFOD do a huge amount to raise awareness of corruption in such countries. But Catholic bishops accept that it's no good sitting self-righteously in your comfortable home and lecturing other places on how to fix themselves. You have to be prepared to do such work yourself - even when the work is not at all to your taste.

The nature and social circumstances of Jesus' dinner guests provoked reactions like yours. Let's not forget that.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Anomaly]

All you Catholic knee-jerk defense of USCCB Bishops need to step back a moment.
Bishop Chaput has made the same points that Budge is makeing. You people need to read some of the news links on PhatMass' home page.
Chaput said America does have a right to control it's borders and bishops prematurely calling for civil disobedience are counter productive. RC Clergy are too quick to blame America for everything and the South American countries have a responsiblity to fix their economic problems.

Too many Bishops are sitting around and helping people who created the messes in their own Countries point to the US and say the US needs to fix them. The Lord helps those who help themselves. Aid to those incapable of helping themselves is one thing. Aid to those who refuse to help themselves or take responsibilty is another thing. There are socio-Economic problems in Mexico that need to be fixed by the Mexican Governemnt. There is no reason why Mexico, with it's oil, people, and natural resources that God blessed it with, cannot provide opportunity for all it's people.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Anomaly

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]RC Clergy are too quick to blame America for everything and the South American countries have a responsiblity to fix their economic problems.[/quote]You only have the responsibility to do what you have the power to do. The people who are being exploited in Mexico don't have the ability to effect change at a high level - they're trapped in a vicious cycle. Countries of the so-called 'developed' world have a responsibility to help such people in whatever way possible. Lobby the Mexican government to make real, concrete reforms. Apply pressure until they bow to it. In the meantime, treat illegal immigrants compassionately. Mine is not a knee-jerk reaction; I frequently visit Oakington Detention Centre with members of the Saint Vincent de Paul group and have seen the isolation and the primitive facilities that these men are expected to live with. They came into Britain illegally. They broke the law. But imprisoning them isn't going to solve any problems - it has just bred fear and yet more pain, as if they didn't have enough to deal with already. As Christians, we need to help people in need and show them compassion no matter what they've done. Our love isn't conditional.

[quote]Too many Bishops are sitting around and helping people who created the messes in their own Countries point to the US and say the US needs to fix them.[/quote]

The US Government seems very eager to barge into Iraq and start laying down the law on how to fix the Middle East. Fixing Mexico? No, that's not American responsibility. This is where the hypocrisy of it nearly chokes me.

[quote]There are socio-Economic problems in Mexico that need to be fixed by the Mexican Governemnt. There is no reason why Mexico, with it's oil, people, and natural resources that God blessed it with, cannot provide opportunity for all it's people.[/quote]The Mexican government is corrupt. What are the people who live below the poverty line going to do about this? What are they [i]able[/i] to do about this? What power do they wield? Is the government going to listen to their voices?

[quote]The Lord helps those who help themselves.[/quote]

I don't understand why this phrase has so much currency in the Christian world. It's not in the Bible. It's not from the writings of a saint. Nobody knows where it comes from and I've never been able to find out, but one thing it is not is Gospel-truth. The mugged man on the road to Jericho was scarcely in a position to help himself. A few weeks ago, when I acted against my mother's advice and went swimming with a slight head cold, I went down with proper flu. I certainly hadn't done myself any favours. Yet my mum didn't respond with "I told you so". She looked after me anyway. If the Lord helps only those who help themselves, then much of Jesus' mission was an exercise in futility.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Anomaly]

Typical emotion based and factless response.

You didn't bother to Google Bishop Chaput to see what he said.

Since our fall from Grace and we were kicked out of Eden, we've been told we have to work for our food. Yes, we are supposed to help those who CANNOT help themselves. Even the Apostles and Paul point out that they earned their own keep so as not to be a burden on the Churches they visited. Where in the Bible, writing of the Saints, or RC Tradition does it say we have to give to those who Can provide for themselves?

Easy for you to pass judgement on the US while living on an Island. You obviously don't know what the UK's policies are on immigration which is extremely harsh and restrictive and the UK doesn't have near the % of population coming in. It's easy to say the Mexico citizens can do anything and make the US citizens bear the burden of their government failures.

How about Bishops and Catholics promoting State responsibilities. How about advocating for social and civil policies that allow people to get paying jobs. Is there any call for Minimum Wage or Living Wages in Mexico? Why not? Do you have any idea of the racism that's rampant in Mexico? That's part of their problem with corrupt government. Do you think the blacks in South Africa had a ton of political power without the support of others in the world community?

[Budge]

[quote]
Picture this, Budge. An illegal immigrant comes to your church. He is extremely poor and when he was in Mexico he lived in appalling circumstances. He wants a better quality of life - clean water, perhaps. Do you tell 'it' (after all, Mexico is a giant monolithic lump that needs to fix ITSELF according to you - let's not talk about subtleties like human beings) all about the oligarchal corruption and how 'it' needs to go back home and fix it, in your best preaching style? Or do you welcome him and show him compassion, even though he has acted in breach of the law?
[/quote]As I told you above, I see the individuals as victims, they are victims of corrupt Mexico, and the elites here who simply want their cheap labor. By the way, life is not easy and free all the time when they do get to America, I saw what happened in my old neighborhood. I had acouple immigrants tell me they REGRETTED coming here.
You see this in the abstract, I lived among immigrants while I was in a poor ghetto neighborhood. I saw how at the Mexican grocery store, I would stop to get something to eat in the morning, and the SAME people would be there working at 9pm at night.


Well sounds like one of your bishops may have some sense: Chaput.

Actually one thing Id like to point out, if I want to immigrate to Mexico, I would find myself in a Mexican jail. Just try it sometime. Mexico isnt equally hospitalble..

What people dont see here is the big picture, NWO elites, and sadly your Vatican supports what is known as OPEN BORDERS. {the powers that be desire to profit off CHEAP, moveable labor, where people essentially will be slaves. So while platitudes are put forth about the poor immigrants, no one ever says, Mexico needs to clean up its act, all of this actually keeps the same corrupt oligarchial system in place, and sad to say considering Rome's politics, I believe they have helped that remain in place.

[quote]You only have the responsibility to do what you have the power to do. The people who are being exploited in Mexico don't have the ability to effect change at a high level - they're trapped in a vicious cycle.[/quote]

Honestly those who support illegal immigration, allowing Mexico to use the USA as a safety valve, are actually suppoting that same vicious cycle.
[quote]
Countries of the so-called 'developed' world have a responsibility to help such people in whatever way possible. Lobby the Mexican government to make real, concrete reforms. Apply pressure until they bow to it.[/quote]How is that going to happen when their people can just go somewhere else? For them the problem is solved.
[quote]

The US Government seems very eager to barge into Iraq and start laying down the law on how to fix the Middle East. Fixing Mexico? No, that's not American responsibility. This is where the hypocrisy of it nearly chokes me.[/quote]

I dont support the Iraq war.
[quote]
The Mexican government is corrupt. What are the people who live below the poverty line going to do about this? What are they able to do about this? What power do they wield? Is the government going to listen to their voices?[/quote]The bishops and those who support illegal immigration are HELPING THAT SYSTEM.

Yeah UK immigration is no where near that of America. You cant even get into the UK if youre American. Trust me I know people personally who have tried to live there long term. If you have big bucks yeah you can do it, but even middle class, no way.

The Open Borders garbage of course isnt applied across the board and or consistently, its for cheap labor and global elites who desire it. Try and immigrate to Mexico...it only goes one way.. Try to move to the UK if youre an American who wants to live in the EU. They choose CERTAIN groups...they have open the door for. iT IS ALL ABOUT CHEAP LABOR POOLS AND PROFIT.

You all need to realize your church is SUPPORTING the politics that exploit these people and the United Nations OPEN BORDERS [one world government] nonsense is a part of this picture.

You need to study....what your church is preaching and doing politically. This has NOTHING to do with helping the poor...but basically exploiting them. Both the American working class who is now being undercut by cheap basically slave labor.

I have two friends who worked with immigrants under Cesar Chavez--they were liberal activists, even they agree the rampant illegal immigration is a problem meant to EXPLOIT people.

[img]http://i15.tinypic.com/2d0ch06.jpg[/img]

[quote][i]The AMERICA the Pope speaks of above is NOT the United States of America, but ALL of North America -- that's Mexico, America and Canada. The statement above made by Pope John Paul II clearly indicates that he was in the camp of the Communist Manifesto, CFR, Trilateral Commission. He has made this and MANY, MANY other similar OWO pronouncements, associations and visits legitimizing communism and other repressive regimes under the guise of love and reconciliation . . . all the while he was promoting a One World Church.[/i][/quote]

[url="http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=160487&Disp=0"]LINK[/url]

[Budge]

The fruits of illegal immigration...


[quote]

US severe poverty reached 32-year high: 16 million people


The gap between the “haves” and “have-nots” in United States keeps widening and the percentage of US citizens who are living in deep or severe poverty has reached a 32-year high, 16 million, according to a report from McClatchy Newspapers.


A McClatchy Newspapers analysis of the 2005 census figures, the latest available, reached that conclusion, defining a family of four with two children and an annual income of less than 9.903 US dollars, half the US federal poverty line, as severely poor in 2005. So were individuals who made less than 5.080 US dollars a year.
[b][u]The McClatchy analysis found that the number of severely poor Americans grew by 26% from 2000 to 2005 which is 56% faster than the overall poverty population grew in the same period. [/u]McClatchy’s review found statistically significant increases in the percentage of the population in severe poverty in 65 of 215 large U.S. counties, and similar increases in 28 states.[/b]

The review also suggested that the rise in severely poor residents isn’t confined to large urban counties but extends to suburban and rural areas.
[b]
The plight of the severely poor is a distressing sidebar to an unusual economic expansion. US worker productivity has increased dramatically since the brief recession of 2001, [b]but wages and job growth have lagged behind. At the same time, the share of national income going to corporate profits has dwarfed the amount going to wages and salaries. That helps explain why the median household income for working-age families, adjusted for inflation, has fallen for five straight years.[/b][/b]

These and other factors have helped push 43% of the nation’s 37 million poor people into deep poverty, the highest rate since at least 1975.

The share of poor Americans in deep poverty has climbed slowly but steadily over the last three decades. But since 2000, the number of severely poor has grown “more than any other segment of the population,” according to a recent study in the American Journal of Preventive Medicine.

“That was the exact opposite of what we anticipated when we began” said Dr. Steven Woolf of Virginia Commonwealth University, who co-authored the study. “We’re not seeing as much moderate poverty as a proportion of the population. What we’re seeing is a dramatic growth of severe poverty.”

The growth, which leveled off in 2005, in part reflects how hard it is for low-skilled workers to earn their way out of poverty in an unstable job market that favors skilled and educated workers. It also suggests that social programs aren’t as effective as they once were at catching those who fall into economic despair.
[b]
According to census data,[u] nearly two of three people in severe poverty are white (10.3 million) and 6.9 million are non-Hispanic whites. [/u]Severely poor blacks (4.3 million) are more than three times as likely as non-Hispanic whites to be in deep poverty, while extremely poor Hispanics of any race (3.7 million) are over twice as likely.[/b]

[b]The McClatchy Newspapers underlines that severe poverty is most pronounced near the Mexican border and in some areas of the South, where 6.5 million severely poor residents are struggling to find work as manufacturing jobs in the textile, apparel and furniture-making industries disappear. [/b]The Midwestern Rust Belt and areas of the Northeast also have been hard hit as economic restructuring and foreign competition has forced numerous plant closings.[/quote]

[url="http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=9933&formato=HTML"]LINK[/url]