God Is The Rock, Not Peter.

[Budge]

GOD is the ROCK, NOT PETER... Why do Catholic ignore these verses?

All these verses proved to me that Jesus--God is the Rock and not Peter and Jesus was talking about himself.

Deu 32:31[b] For their rock [is] not as our Rock,[/b] even our enemies themselves [being] judges.

1Sa 2:2 [There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: [b]neither [is there] any rock like our God.[/b]

2Sa 22:2 And he said, The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

2Sa 22:3 [b]The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [/b][he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

(these arent the only verses there are many many many more)

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and [b]rock of offence[/b]: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

How can Peter be the ROCK....considering this verse?

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that[b] Rock was Christ.[/b]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207343' date='Mar 3 2007, 05:29 PM']GOD is the ROCK, NOT PETER... Why do Catholic ignore these verses?

All these verses proved to me that Jesus--God is the Rock and not Peter and Jesus was talking about himself.

Deu 32:31[b] For their rock [is] not as our Rock,[/b] even our enemies themselves [being] judges.

1Sa 2:2 [There is] none holy as the LORD: for [there is] none beside thee: [b]neither [is there] any rock like our God.[/b]

2Sa 22:2 And he said, The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

2Sa 22:3 [b]The God of my rock; in him will I trust: [/b][he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

(these arent the only verses there are many many many more)

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and [b]rock of offence[/b]: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

How can Peter be the ROCK....considering this verse?

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that[b] Rock was Christ.[/b][/quote]
So we are going to play the verse game this time?
"THou are Peter, and upon this rock the gates of hell will not prevail."

[Budge]

Hey I like Bible verses.

When i was STILL Catholic, I discovered those verses, and they got me thinking.

I never think they are a bad idea to share.

Especially the last one.

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep I love that one "Thou are Peter..."

[Akalyte]

ne of the points I try to emphasize when giving a seminar is that you can begin to be an effective apologist right away; you don’t have to wait until you become a theological whiz. Just work with what you know, even if it’s only one fact.

I illustrate this from my own experience, and you can use this technique the next time you have verses thrown at you by an anti-Catholic.

Some years ago, before I took a real interest in reading the Bible, I tried to avoid missionaries who came to the door. I had been burned too often. Why open the door, or why prolong the conversation (if they caught me outside the house), when I had nothing to say?

Sure, I had a Bible. I used it perhaps the way you use yours today: to catch dust that otherwise would gather on the top shelf of the bookcase. It was one of those "family" Bibles, crammed with beautiful color plates and so heavy that my son didn’t outweigh it until he turned five.

As I said, I had a Bible, but I didn’t turn to it much; so I had little to say about the Bible when missionaries cornered me. I didn’t know to which verses I should refer when explaining the Catholic position.

For a layman, I suppose I was reasonably well informed about my faith—at least I never doubted it or ceased to practice it—but my own reading had not equipped me for verbal duels.

Then, one day, I came across a nugget of information that sent a shock wave through the next missionary who rang the bell and that proved to me that becoming skilled in apologetics isn’t really all that difficult. Here’s what happened.

When I answered the door, the lone missionary introduced himself as a Seventh-Day Adventist. He asked if he could "share" with me some insights from the Bible. I told him to go ahead.

He flipped from one page to another, quoting this verse and that, trying to demonstrate the errors of the Church of Rome and the manifest truth of his own denomination’s position.



Not much to say


Some of the verses I had encountered before. I wasn’t entirely illiterate with respect to the Bible, but many verses were new to me. Whether familiar or not, the verses elicited no response from me, because I didn’t know enough about the Bible to respond effectively.

Finally the missionary got to Matthew 16:18: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church."

"Hold it right there!" I said. "I know that verse. That’s where Jesus appointed Simon the earthly head of the Church. That’s where he appointed him the first pope." I paused and smiled broadly, knowing what the missionary would say in response.

I knew he usually didn’t get any defense of the Catholic position at all as he went door to door, but sometimes a Catholic would speak up as I had. He had a reply, and I knew what it would be, and I was ready for it.

"I understand your thinking," he said, "but you Catholics misunderstand this verse because you don’t know any Greek. That’s the trouble with your Church and with your scholars. You people don’t know the language in which the New Testament was written. To understand Matthew 16:18, we have to get behind the English to the Greek."

"Is that so?" I said, leading him on. I pretended to be ignorant of the trap being laid for me.

"Yes," he said. "In Greek, the word for rock is petra, which means a large, massive stone. The word used for Simon’s new name is different; it’s Petros, which means a little stone, a pebble."

In reality, what the missionary was telling me at this point was false. As Greek scholars—even non-Catholic ones—admit, the words petros and petra were synonyms in first century Greek. They meant "small stone" and "large rock" in some ancient Greek poetry, centuries before the time of Christ, but that distinction had disappeared from the language by the time Matthew’s Gospel was rendered in Greek. The difference in meaning can only be found in Attic Greek, but the New Testament was written in Koine Greek—an entirely different dialect. In Koine Greek, both petros and petra simply meant "rock." If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the Greek lithos would have been used. The missionary’s argument didn’t work and showed a faulty knowledge of Greek. (For an Evangelical Protestant Greek scholar’s admission of this, see D. A. Carson, The Expositor’s Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984], Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., 8:368).

"You Catholics," the missionary continued, "because you don’t know Greek, imagine that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock. Actually, of course, it was just the opposite. He was contrasting them. On the one side, the rock on which the Church would be built, Jesus himself; on the other, this mere pebble. Jesus was really saying that he himself would be the foundation, and he was emphasizing that Simon wasn’t remotely qualified to be it."

"Case closed," he thought.

It was the missionary’s turn to pause and smile broadly. He had followed the training he had been given. He had been told that a rare Catholic might have heard of Matthew 16:18 and might argue that it proved the establishment of the papacy. He knew what he was supposed to say to prove otherwise, and he had said it.

"Well," I replied, beginning to use that nugget of information I had come across, "I agree with you that we must get behind the English to the Greek." He smiled some more and nodded. "But I’m sure you’ll agree with me that we must get behind the Greek to the Aramaic."

"The what?" he asked.

"The Aramaic," I said. "As you know, Aramaic was the language Jesus and the apostles and all the Jews in Palestine spoke. It was the common language of the place."

"I thought Greek was."

"No," I answered. "Many, if not most of them, knew Greek, of course, because Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world. It was the language of culture and commerce; and most of the books of the New Testament were written in it, because they were written not just for Christians in Palestine but also for Christians in places such as Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, places where Aramaic wasn’t the spoken language.

"I say most of the New Testament was written in Greek, but not all. Many hold that Matthew was written in Aramaic—we know this from records kept by Eusebius of Caesarea—but it was translated into Greek early on, perhaps by Matthew himself. In any case the Aramaic original is lost (as are all the originals of the New Testament books), so all we have today is the Greek."

I stopped for a moment and looked at the missionary. He seemed a bit uncomfortable, perhaps doubting that I was a Catholic because I seemed to know what I was talking about. I continued.



Aramaic in the New Testament


"We know that Jesus spoke Aramaic because some of his words are preserved for us in the Gospels. Look at Matthew 27:46, where he says from the cross, ‘Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?’ That isn’t Greek; it’s Aramaic, and it means, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’

"What’s more," I said, "in Paul’s epistles—four times in Galatians and four times in 1 Corinthians—we have the Aramaic form of Simon’s new name preserved for us. In our English Bibles it comes out as Cephas. That isn’t Greek. That’s a transliteration of the Aramaic word Kepha (rendered as Kephas in its Hellenistic form).

"And what does Kepha mean? It means a rock, the same as petra. (It doesn’t mean a little stone or a pebble. What Jesus said to Simon in Matthew 16:18 was this: ‘You are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my Church.’

"When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’ In French one word, pierre, has always been used both for Simon’s new name and for the rock."

For a few moments the missionary seemed stumped. It was obvious he had never heard such a rejoinder. His brow was knit in thought as he tried to come up with a counter. Then it occurred to him.

"Wait a second," he said. "If kepha means the same as petra, why don’t we read in the Greek, ‘You are Petra, and on this petra I will build my Church’? Why, for Simon’s new name, does Matthew use a Greek word, Petros, which means something quite different from petra?"

"Because he had no choice," I said. "Greek and Aramaic have different grammatical structures. In Aramaic you can use kepha in both places in Matthew 16:18. In Greek you encounter a problem arising from the fact that nouns take differing gender endings.

"You have masculine, feminine, and neuter nouns. The Greek word petra is feminine. You can use it in the second half of Matthew 16:18 without any trouble. But you can’t use it as Simon’s new name, because you can’t give a man a feminine name—at least back then you couldn’t. You have to change the ending of the noun to make it masculine. When you do that, you get Petros, which was an already-existing word meaning rock.

"I admit that’s an imperfect rendering of the Aramaic; you lose part of the play on words. In English, where we have ‘Peter’ and ‘rock,’ you lose all of it. But that’s the best you can do in Greek."

Beyond the grammatical evidence, the structure of the narrative does not allow for a downplaying of Peter’s role in the Church. Look at the way Matthew 16:15-19 is structured. After Peter gives a confession about the identity of Jesus, the Lord does the same in return for Peter. Jesus does not say, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are an insignificant pebble and on this rock I will build my Church. . . . I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven." Jesus is giving Peter a three-fold blessing, including the gift of the keys to the kingdom, not undermining his authority. To say that Jesus is downplaying Peter flies in the face of the context. Jesus is installing Peter as a form of chief steward or prime minister under the King of Kings by giving him the keys to the kingdom. As can be seen in Isaiah 22:22, kings in the Old Testament appointed a chief steward to serve under them in a position of great authority to rule over the inhabitants of the kingdom. Jesus quotes almost verbatum from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17). This authority of the prime minister under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy.



My turn to pause


I stopped and smiled. The missionary smiled back uncomfortably, but said nothing. We exchanged smiles for about thirty seconds. Then he looked at his watch, noticed how time had flown, and excused himself. I never saw him again.

So what came of this encounter? Two things—one for me, one for him.

I began to develop a sense of confidence. I began to see that I could defend my faith if I engaged in a little homework. The more homework, the better the defense.

I realized that any literate Catholic—including you—could do the same. You don’t have to suspect your faith might be untrue when you can’t come up with an answer to a pointed question.

Once you develop a sense of confidence, you can say to yourself, "I may not know the answer to that, but I know I could find the answer if I hit the books. The answer is there, if only I spend the time to look for it."

And what about the missionary? Did he go away with anything? I think so. I think he went away with a doubt regarding his understanding (or lack of understanding) of Catholics and the Catholic faith. I hope his doubt has since matured into a sense that maybe, just maybe, Catholics have something to say on behalf of their religion and that he should look more carefully into the Faith he once so confidently opposed.


—Karl Keating

Edited March 3, 2007 by Akalyte

[N/A Gone]

Awesome..what is that from?

[Fixxxer]

So God was the People's Champion? I smell what he is cooking

[Apotheoun]

Of course God is the rock, but so is Peter.

Not only that, but all Christians -- each one in his own way -- is the rock, because salvation involves a participation in all of God's uncreated energies. The incarnation of the eternal Logos entails a [i]communicatio idiomatum[/i] (i.e., a communication of properties), which is applicable not only to the Logos Himself personally ([i]hypostatically[/i]), but to all those who have been redeemed by Him.

[Budge]

[quote]in all of God's uncreated energies.[/quote]

Uncreated energies..

What does that mean?

[Moneybags]

Jesus called Peter the "Rock" in Matthew 16:18. Read! Jesus called Peter the rock. He didn't call Himself! Think!

[thessalonian]

Tell me something budge.

Who is the foundation of the Church? Christ or Prophets and Apostles? (Hint: both/and 1 Cor 3:11, Eph 2:20)
Who is the "light of the world"? Christ, or Christians? (Hint: both/and, see John's gospel)

John 8

12: Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Matt 5
14: "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.


Do these passages contradict budge?

Who is the ROCK from which the Jews were hewn in Isiaha 51

1: "Hearken to me, you who pursue deliverance, you who seek the LORD; [b]look to the rock from which you were hewn[/b], and to the quarry from which you were digged.
2: [b]Look to Abraham your father and to Sarah who bore you[/b]; for when he was but one I called him, and I blessed him and made him many.

What? Abraham can be called rock but Peter can't be. Rocks are infinite God or something such that a man cannot be called a rock. Seems like your making rocks in to graven images of God budge. To understand the bible you reconcile things. Not deny things in order to suit preconcieved notions. All your proving budge is that your pitting the Bible against itself and ignoring plain English constructs, so that you can have your own personal doctrines. Sad, very sad. Now go to the bathroom and wash that egg off your face. I know you can't see it but it is there.

Edited March 4, 2007 by thessalonian

[Norseman82]

2 John 13: "The children of your elect sister send you their greetings".

Ezra 6:2: "and in Ecbatana, the stronghold in the province of Media, a scroll was found containing the following text: 'Memorandum:'".

2 Samuel 18:1: "After mustering the troops he had with him, David placed officers in command of groups of a thousand and groups of a hundred".

Job 32:4: "But since these men were older than he, Elihu bided his time before answering Job."

Therefore, Estonian should be the official language of the USA.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Norseman82

[Mr.Cat]

Jesus renames Simon "[i]Kepha[/i]" in Aramaic which literally means "[i]rock[/i]." This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because "[i]rock[/i]" was not even a name in Jesus' time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person's name, He changes their status. Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in [b]Eph. 2:20[/b], the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in [b]1 Peter 2:25[/b], Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in [b]Acts 20:28[/b], the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.

Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "[i]Kepha[/i]" and on this "[i]Kepha[/i]" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "[i]kepha[/i]" means a massive stone, and "[i]evna[/i]" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is "[i]petra[/i]", that "[i]Petros[/i]" actually means "[i]a small rock[/i]", and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "[i]Kepha[/i]," not "[i]evna[/i]." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter. Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the "[i]small rock[/i]," he would have used "[i]lithos[/i]" which means a little pebble in Greek. Also, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church. (You don’t even need [b]Matt. 16:18 [/b]to prove Peter is the rock because Jesus renamed Simon “[i]rock[/i]” in [b]Mark 3:16 [/b]and [b]John 1:42[/b]!).

To further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, Jesus says Simon "[i]Bar-Jona[/i]." The use of "[i]Bar-Jona[/i]" proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, "[i]Bar[/i]" means son, and "[i]Jonah[/i]" means John or dove (Holy Spirit). See [b]Matt. 27:46 [/b]and[b] Mark 15:34[/b] which give another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of [b]Psalm 22[/b] declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time. Also, in quoting "[i]on this rock[/i]," the Scriptures use the Greek construction "[i]tautee tee[/i]" which means on "[i]this[/i]" rock; on "[i]this same[/i]" rock; or on "[i]this very[/i]" rock. "[i]Tautee tee[/i]" is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“[i]tautee[/i]”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“[i]Petros[/i]”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “[i]faith[/i]” is equated with “[i]rock[/i].”

In addition, to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter's leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven ([color="#C0C0C0"]not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom[/color]). To further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “[i]you[/i]” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “[i]you[/i],” and I tell “[i]you[/i],” “[i]you[/i]” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “[i]you[/i]” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “[i]you[/i]” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1207720' date='Mar 4 2007, 11:53 AM']2 John 13: "The children of your elect sister send you their greetings".

Ezra 6:2: "and in Ecbatana, the stronghold in the province of Media, a scroll was found containing the following text: 'Memorandum:'".

2 Samuel 18:1: "After mustering the troops he had with him, David placed officers in command of groups of a thousand and groups of a hundred".

Job 32:4: "But since these men were older than he, Elihu bided his time before answering Job."

Therefore, Estonian should be the official language of the USA.[/quote]

Hahahaha

[Mercy me]

Norseman you are so funny.

Seriously though, You can try to deny the possition of Peter all you want and say that the words in scripture mean something else but that is not how they were interpretted at the time. Certainly Jesus Himself had the chance to correct any misunderstanding but He never did. You can talk and disagree all you want about it but that won't change the truth.