jswranch Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Ok, I am having alot of trouble explaining why IVF is evil to some PresBabGelicals. Trying to convince them of the natural law/created order is next to impossible. Anyone have experience with this? I have tried both principals from Jimmyakin and Donum Vitae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 yea, what specifics do you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted February 28, 2007 Author Share Posted February 28, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1205698' date='Feb 28 2007, 12:12 AM']yea, what specifics do you need?[/quote] Proofs for our support for natural law/created order. I made the statment that God prefers the ten toes up, ten toes down method of reproduction over the test tube. We know this because his creation was good. This of course led to contraceptive issues of how we must be open to reproduction in every reproductive act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 My knowledge of thomas is very limited. Other than just explaining natural law in itself I would show the risks and dangers of IVF. How it is de-feminising. Do a phatmass search for birth control. I pray you find more of the specifics you are dealing with. Im too augustinian to know Thomas that well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 "Leftover" embryos should be alarming enough, not to mention you are adding a third human party (the doctor) to the conception of the child and that the sperm is likely obtained through an immoral method. IVF opens up the possibility to eugenics as well - which embryos do you implant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tufsoles Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 IVF is not natural. It's like playing God when God can do it himself. He needs no imposters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 28, 2007 Share Posted February 28, 2007 Are you, by any chance, debating this on the Relevant Magazine boards? I haven't been over there (or here) in a week or two, but just noticed a thread that's already 12 pages long (which I won't be reading) that started out about in vitro fertilization and is now on birth control and NFP. I plan on adding some comments, but don't have anything intelligent to say offhand. But I've found that the unitive and procreative power of sex is imitative of the Trinity's unifying and creative force personally helps me to accept and understand the Church's teaching on sexual ethics. As with any topic like this, one's power to persuade has little to do with your argument itself, but rather how you carry out your argument. There are too many people who say stuff like, "You obviously didn't read this part...." or "I'm dumbfounded at the apparent straw man you've presented..." or whatever... making personal attacks and used emotionally charged words just turns things into a fight and turns up everyone's pride so that they'll never concede. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1205963' date='Feb 28 2007, 05:55 PM']As with any topic like this, one's power to persuade has little to do with your argument itself, but rather how you carry out your argument. There are too many people who say stuff like, "You obviously didn't read this part...." or "I'm dumbfounded at the apparent straw man you've presented..." or whatever... making personal attacks and used emotionally charged words just turns things into a fight and turns up everyone's pride so that they'll never concede.[/quote] You have pretty much hit the nail on the head here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 I didn't find time to get over there tonight, but Sunday should be better after I get back from this discernment retreat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted March 2, 2007 Share Posted March 2, 2007 I find the easiest defense to this is the fact that 8-15 children are created in a test tube, and that most of them are destroyed in the process of trying to save just one through implantation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 [quote name='prose' post='1206745' date='Mar 2 2007, 07:05 AM']I find the easiest defense to this is the fact that 8-15 children are created in a test tube, and that most of them are destroyed in the process of trying to save just one through implantation.[/quote] Yeah, same here. Though you might have to start with talking about contraception to begin with, at least that's been my experience trying to explain things like this to my evangelical family & friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jswranch Posted March 5, 2007 Author Share Posted March 5, 2007 [quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1207658' date='Mar 4 2007, 07:35 AM']Yeah, same here. Though you might have to start with talking about contraception to begin with, at least that's been my experience trying to explain things like this to my evangelical family & friends.[/quote] Yes, the best (yet not well accepted) case against IVF is 1. Abortions it causes 2. Contraception Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franimus Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 What's the inherent difference between NFP and other contraception? What makes NFP so different from condoms? If other contraception is against life, why isn't NFP against life? I'm finding it hard to support NFP while opposing other contraception, without saying that all contraception, including NFP, is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 [quote name='Franimus' post='1208946' date='Mar 6 2007, 04:46 AM']What's the inherent difference between NFP and other contraception? What makes NFP so different from condoms? If other contraception is against life, why isn't NFP against life? I'm finding it hard to support NFP while opposing other contraception, without saying that all contraception, including NFP, is wrong.[/quote] Okay, not an expert by any means, but I'll put in my understanding of it. Every sexual act should be open to life, and NFP allows for that. NFP is used for either postponing (not preventing) or achieving pregnancy. And remember it has to be a good reason for postponing. However, if I charted incorrectly or my signs were off or something, my husband & I would not be inhibiting fertilisation & implantation. We are open to the possibility of pregnancy, just trying to postpone until we have jobs (hopefully soon ). NFP also allows for the unitive act of sexual intercourse, giving your entire self to your spouse. Artificial contraception, though, means you aren't giving all of yourself to your spouse, because you aren't giving your fertility. It prevents fertilisation, and sometimes causes abortions (depending on method), both of which equate to not being open to the possibility of pregnancy. I hope that makes sense. And someone else can feel free to chime in, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 It is also easy to have a contraceptive mind-set while using NFP. So there is a danger there. Janet Smith has a great CD out, and you can also download the MP3 version here: [url="http://mycatholicfaith.org/storefront/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=41"]Janet Smith's MP3 on this.[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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