To Larry ("truth")

[phatcatholic]

larry,

i posted this same info in another thread, but i provide it here again just for you, so that you will not lose it in the shuffle.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If it was when and where did it become the CC? I didn't see it any where between the first page in Genesis and the last page in Revelation but I did see and read letter to the seven church that both the Apostle and Jesus wrote to.

Larry,

a long time ago, in another thread, i posted my proof that the Early Church is the Catholic Church, and you never responded to it, despite my frequent reminders. i will post it yet again, b/c i am sincerely interested in discovering how a person can be confronted w/ the following information and still insist that the early Church is not the Catholic Church.

below you will find testimony from the earliest christians which reveals that they held distinctly Catholic beliefs. Does YOUR church believe in these? (each link will take u to a page w/ the early church testimony i am referring to)

--80 AD, Apostolic Tradition upheld

--80 AD, belief in Apostolic Succession

--80 AD, Authority of the Pope upheld

--200 AD, belief in Peter as the First Pope

--200 AD, belief in Peter's Primacy among the Apostles

--189 AD, belief that the Pope was Peter's Successor

--80 AD, belief in the Intercession of Saints

--120 AD, Mary's Perpetual Virginity upheld

--189 AD, belief in Mary as the Mother of God

--110 AD, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is upheld

larry, pay particular attention to the following:

--74 AD, belief that Grace is Received through Baptism

--151 AD, belief that we are "Born Again" in Baptism

--189 AD, the legitimacy of Infant Baptism is upheld

--70 AD, Baptism is performed with the Trinitarian Formula

--80 AD, the Necessity of Baptism is upheld

now, on to a few more:

--160 AD, belief in Purgatory

--70 AD, Christians worship on Sunday

--110 AD, even the early Christians knew their Church was the Catholic Church

if you would like even MORE proof that the early Church is the Catholic Church, then you can go here or here.

is this enough proof, Larry? Do you believe in all of those things? the early Church sure did............as do Catholics today. How could any other conclusion be drawn besides the one that Dave and I have been fighting to prove to you? The early Church believed what only the Catholic Church beleives today. To me that says that the Early Church is the Catholic Church.

Larry, i anxiously await your attempt to reconile this information both w/ ur beleif system and w/ ur misconceptions about Catholicism.

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic

[TABBY]

I believe :D

Oh wait...I am not Larry, but still I believe.

Edited January 25, 2004 by TABBY

[Circle_Master]

honestly phatcatholic, do you ever consider how many errors paul had to fight when he was alive and how often even as an apostle he was chased from towns constantly and think those errors not only continued, but multiplied without an apostolic influence and the signs and wonders inherent in their position? how can you be sure anything you put from church history isn't riddled with heresies such as that? you can look at many of them such as the necessity of baptism and see how secular it would be to make there be a work to get into a religion? what of these are influenced, and what could be true? isn't Scripture the rule you must go to first for even the authority of the Catholic Church is based on church history

[hyperdulia again]

I don't debate anymore, because it's just there Christ's Church is. She was. She will be.

That's random, but it's sooooo frustrating showing plain (and sometimes not so plain, but very complicated) fact to people ad having them respond with, "WELL that's not what the Bible/Tradition/HISTORY actually mean."

I'm going to talk to Jesus and His Mama in the Rosary.

[Anna]

Oh, hyper, please do remember me to Our Lord and Our Lady in your prayers.

[Anna]

isn't Scripture the rule you must go to first for even the authority of the Catholic Church is based on church history

Circle Master,

We balance Scripture with Sacred Tradition, history, the Early Church Fathers, and the Authority bestowed by Christ Himself upon the Church.

Don't understand quite what you mean, "isn't Scripture the rule you must go to first," since the Church wrote the New Testament! If She was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write It, and had the Authority to proclaim It inspired, then I think we have the assurance that this Church isn't teaching any heresies.

Can you say the same about your church?

Pax Christi. <><

[Circle_Master]

We balance Scripture with Sacred Tradition, history, the Early Church Fathers, and the Authority bestowed by Christ Himself upon the Church.

Interesting. I prefer to have a definate. Balancing is too difficult and impossible for us humans.

Don't understand quite what you mean, "isn't Scripture the rule you must go to first," since the Church wrote the New Testament!  If She was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write It, and had the Authority to proclaim It inspired, then I think we have the assurance that this Church isn't teaching any heresies.

That is assuming that those who wrote the New Testament were part of this institution. Why don't you find it odd most of your beliefs are seen in church father's writings but not Scripture? You would think the apostles would know what is important and what isn't.

Can you say the same about your church?

Sarcasm and attack noted - and answer is yes, the church of Christ was there.

[Anna]

Why don't you find it odd most of your beliefs are seen in church father's writings but not Scripture? You would think the apostles would know what is important and what isn't.

We don't find it odd because our Church's teachings are found in the Scriptures, of course you don't have a complete Bible, now do ya?

Pax Christi. <><

[Truth]

larry,

i posted this same info in another thread, but i provide it here again just for you, so that you will not lose it in the shuffle.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry,

a long time ago, in another thread, i posted my proof that the Early Church is the Catholic Church, and you never responded to it, despite my frequent reminders. i will post it yet again, b/c i am sincerely interested in discovering how a person can be confronted w/ the following information and still insist that the early Church is not the Catholic Church.

below you will find testimony from the earliest christians which reveals that they held distinctly Catholic beliefs. Does YOUR church believe in these? (each link will take u to a page w/ the early church testimony i am referring to)

--80 AD, Apostolic Tradition upheld

--80 AD, belief in Apostolic Succession

--80 AD, Authority of the Pope upheld

--200 AD, belief in Peter as the First Pope

--200 AD, belief in Peter's Primacy among the Apostles

--189 AD, belief that the Pope was Peter's Successor

--80 AD, belief in the Intercession of Saints

--120 AD, Mary's Perpetual Virginity upheld

--189 AD, belief in Mary as the Mother of God

--110 AD, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is upheld

larry, pay particular attention to the following:

--74 AD, belief that Grace is Received through Baptism

--151 AD, belief that we are "Born Again" in Baptism

--189 AD, the legitimacy of Infant Baptism is upheld

--70 AD, Baptism is performed with the Trinitarian Formula

--80 AD, the Necessity of Baptism is upheld

now, on to a few more:

--160 AD, belief in Purgatory

--70 AD, Christians worship on Sunday

--110 AD, even the early Christians knew their Church was the Catholic Church

if you would like even MORE proof that the early Church is the Catholic Church, then you can go here or here.

is this enough proof, Larry? Do you believe in all of those things? the early Church sure did............as do Catholics today. How could any other conclusion be drawn besides the one that Dave and I have been fighting to prove to you? The early Church believed what only the Catholic Church beleives today. To me that says that the Early Church is the Catholic Church.

Larry, i anxiously await your attempt to reconile this information both w/ ur beleif system and w/ ur misconceptions about Catholicism.

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic

Can you not find information that is not written by Catholic, that will back up you case if not, I will not reply to your posting. I don't remember give you permission to call me anything by truth. You don't know me or my name. thank you.

[Truth]

larry,

i posted this same info in another thread, but i provide it here again just for you, so that you will not lose it in the shuffle.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry,

a long time ago, in another thread, i posted my proof that the Early Church is the Catholic Church, and you never responded to it, despite my frequent reminders. i will post it yet again, b/c i am sincerely interested in discovering how a person can be confronted w/ the following information and still insist that the early Church is not the Catholic Church.

below you will find testimony from the earliest christians which reveals that they held distinctly Catholic beliefs. Does YOUR church believe in these? (each link will take u to a page w/ the early church testimony i am referring to)

--80 AD, Apostolic Tradition upheld

--80 AD, belief in Apostolic Succession

--80 AD, Authority of the Pope upheld

--200 AD, belief in Peter as the First Pope

--200 AD, belief in Peter's Primacy among the Apostles

--189 AD, belief that the Pope was Peter's Successor

--80 AD, belief in the Intercession of Saints

--120 AD, Mary's Perpetual Virginity upheld

--189 AD, belief in Mary as the Mother of God

--110 AD, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is upheld

larry, pay particular attention to the following:

--74 AD, belief that Grace is Received through Baptism

--151 AD, belief that we are "Born Again" in Baptism

--189 AD, the legitimacy of Infant Baptism is upheld

--70 AD, Baptism is performed with the Trinitarian Formula

--80 AD, the Necessity of Baptism is upheld

now, on to a few more:

--160 AD, belief in Purgatory

--70 AD, Christians worship on Sunday

--110 AD, even the early Christians knew their Church was the Catholic Church

if you would like even MORE proof that the early Church is the Catholic Church, then you can go here or here.

is this enough proof, Larry? Do you believe in all of those things? the early Church sure did............as do Catholics today. How could any other conclusion be drawn besides the one that Dave and I have been fighting to prove to you? The early Church believed what only the Catholic Church beleives today. To me that says that the Early Church is the Catholic Church.

Larry, i anxiously await your attempt to reconile this information both w/ ur beleif system and w/ ur misconceptions about Catholicism.

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic

If your answers come from Catholic Answer.com, you don't have a defence. You need to use source that are not Catholic. What do you think Catholic Answer are going to say. Show me in the Bible or other non-Catholic sources.

[Bruce S]

grin. Thanks

Yeah, when cornered the DEFENSE offered is always, other Catholics claiming they hold Catholic beliefs.

For the Catholic Church, the truth is contained in TRADITION first, never forget that.

[TABBY]

Is that your defense? Crying out "it is from a catholic author"?

Let us look at a convert writter for a minunte. There was this man named Patrick Madrid, and he spent many years trying to prove that the Catholic church is wrong. He could not find a flaw on the church. He found supporting evidence that the Church was built by Christ. He then converted.

Do you see where I am going with this? If a person ends up studying Catholic and writes about it...it is more than likely they will convert.

Edited January 25, 2004 by TABBY

[Truth]

I don't debate anymore, because it's just there Christ's Church is. She was. She will be.

That's random, but it's sooooo frustrating showing plain (and sometimes not so plain, but very complicated) fact to people ad having them respond with, "WELL that's not what the Bible/Tradition/HISTORY actually mean."

I'm going to talk to Jesus and His Mama in the Rosary.

Try talking to God he is not to busy. Use Jesus he is you main line. If you want to hear what God have to say use the Scripture, he is talking to you there! Mary don't have the number, she too only had a calling card.

This is not to be hard but to be truthful.

[Truth]

Oh, hyper, please do remember me to Our Lord and Our Lady in your prayers.

But you Guy say that you don't pray to Mary. Did you just change that, or did I miss something in what you just asked?

[Truth]

We don't find it odd because our Church's teachings are found in the Scriptures, of course you don't have a complete Bible, now do ya?

Pax Christi. <><

I didn't see any scripture to support anything that you say about the Cc. You can't go anywhere in scripture and support the claims you make about the Cc, but you can very well support the CC.