What Do You Put Your Faith In

[Brother Adam]

The total depravity of Calvinism and Martin Luther's dung analogy are both at odds with Catholic theology. Catholics believe that God made man "in His image" and that man is "good" as God has deemed man. Martin Luther sees man as naturally evil (dung) which cannot be cleaned even by baptism (the action or grace of God). The most God can do in Lutheran theology is cover man with Christ while man remains in his filth. This is contra Paul who states explicitly that it is no longer I who lives but "Christ who liveth in me." After man's cooperation with God, by the act of God and the grace of God, in baptism man is completely cleansed of all sin, original and actual, and stands, even for a moment, as a completely holy person because he is in Christ. Due to concupiscence man may fall into sin after his baptism, both mortal and venial, so in he once again, like the prodigal son, must return to his Father, having forsaken his inheritance (eternal life). While there are many similarities between Catholicism and Protestantism (as Protestantism is derived from Catholicism) we must remember that both take on a dramatically different world view. The Catechism of the Catholic Church #1949 - 2029 explain very clearly and briefly what Catholics believe about salvation. You can read it online here: [url="http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Catechism-Catholic3.php"]http://www.catecheticsonline.com/Catechism-Catholic3.php[/url]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205080' date='Feb 26 2007, 11:06 PM']nope. that was before the crucifiction.
you shouldn't be asking only me, apparently catholics believe it too in a different way.[/quote]I'm confused, are you saying that the metaphor to dung hills (and total depravity, etc) only applies to those who lived after the Crucifixion of Our Lord?

PS: the correct spelling is "Crucifixion."

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205014' date='Feb 26 2007, 08:57 PM']Note then that Catholics are not immune from the legal snow dung argument.[/quote]
Individuals may falsely believe in it, but the Church clearly teaches against it.

One thing I never liked about the idea of imputed righteousness is that it's sort of like divine book-cooking. Man isn't actually worthy of heaven, so God just looks at Jesus and decides to consider man worthy in light of Jesus. How is it that that doesn't make God out to be a liar? Can God consider evil to be good? No, of course not...man must actually be made worthy of heaven, inside and out.

[jesussaves]

I note your disapproval of the legal theory. But the legal theory, or at least a variation of it, seems to be the only way to rectify in Catholic theology the fact most persons die with venial sins on their soul. I've been told here, in fact I think Raphael told me this, that at or just before death, an unofficial teaching is that God forgives your venial sins. That would seem to be a legal forgiveness, no? He doesn't forgive them in purgatory through inward change, he only forgives temporal aspects of sin. A person can't be expected to repent right before death, as suggested by the one poster above, because hardly any would have that chance, and even if they did, that their repentence is true, that they'd never sin again, is very low: and if you forgave someone who was sorry but prone to sin whenthey happened to die, then it's like they just got lucky.
So you tell me... what becomes of your venial sins that you are living in when you die?

[cmotherofpirl]

So if you take the glorification principle from a lot of christians. and you take purgatory from the Catholic Church, it seems the only place there's disagreement is when the sins are forgiven. With protestants they are all forgiven at a certain point of conversion.

[color="#FF0000"] Baptism removes the stain of original sin if you are a baby. If you are an adult, it removes that plus any other sins you have committed in your lifetime. Baptism justifies you and you become a member of the Body of Christ.
However any mortal sin you commit after that must be repented, confessed and absolved or you go to hell. All mortal sins must be absolved BEFORE death to have a chance of heaven.
I have never understood how protestants think their sins are forgiven at any point. Just say God forgive me? They have no assurance but some vague feeling? I would not not bet my eternity on feeling.[/color]


With Catholics, most are forgiven for their own sake as you have no longer done them, but there still remains at the end of your life a legal forgiveness. You are legally forgiven, the snow is covering your dung, of your venial sins at your death.

[color="#FF0000"]A sin is not forgiven just because you stop doing it, it is forgiven if you repent, confess and are absolved for it. Otherwise it remains on your soul. There is no "legal" forgiveness at the end of your life. If you have small imperfections they are cleansed in the fires of purgatory. If you have mortal sin, you go to hell. There is no covering, that is a foreign non-christian concept. Either you are WASHED in the blood of the Lamb by absolution or you go to hell. In no way are your sins hidden by pretending they are not there. You do not not put clean clothes on a dirty body, you take a bath.[/color]


The dispute seems actually petty. I suppose I could even see liking the Catholic position better, as it doesn't forgive all sins just because, it forgives a lesser amount of sins legally at your death.

[color="#FF0000"]We don't have lessser sins forgiven just because we are dying.THeir is no get out of hell card at the end.[/color]

Note then that Catholics are not immune from the legal snow dung argument.

[color="#FF0000"]THis argument is not christian so it doesn't even matter[/color]

[jesussaves]

So that's a way of looking at it I haven't considered. You say the sins are not forgiven when you die, you are simply made pure in purgatory such that you don't need the forgiveness before you die. This goes against the idea that you have to be forgiven before you die: I take that notion for granted and will need to think about it whether an alternative is feasible. I don't have time to think about it or read the bible but I will get back to you.

So does God force you to be good? If he doesn't I go back to my reservation that man could never comply become perfect, even if God's grace.
Or maybe in purgatory the bad parts of you are "cut off" such that what's left is perfect?

Edited February 27, 2007 by jesussaves

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205303' date='Feb 27 2007, 12:03 PM']So that's a way of looking at it I haven't considered. You say the sins are not forgiven when you die, you are simply made pure in purgatory such that you don't need the forgiveness before you die.

[color="#FF0000"]If you are in a state of grace when you die you go to heaven.
This means you have been to confession, confessed your sins, been absolved and done penance.
If you have small imperfections on your soul - the stains of sin forgiven, you go to purgatory.
If you have unforgiven mortal sin on your soul you go to hell.[/color]

This goes against the idea that you have to be forgiven before you die: I take that notion for granted and will need to think about it whether an alternative is feasible. I don't have time to think about it or read the bible but I will get back to you.

[color="#FF0000"]Why do you take that notion for granted, the Bible doesn't stay all is forgiven at the end of your life.[/color]

So does God force you to be good? If he doesn't I go back to my reservation that man could never comply become perfect, even if God's grace.
Or maybe in purgatory the bad parts of you are "cut off" such that what's left is perfect?

[color="#FF0000"]God has given us free will, He doesn 't force anything, He simply asks. If you have mortal sin on your soul at death, purgatory is not an option. Death cuts off the choices, only judgement remains.[/color][/quote]

[jesussaves]

You didn't address what happens to venial sins. At least most have venial sins when they die.
You said God cleans small things that are already forgiven. How did the venial sins get forgiven in the first place?

[Jaime]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205433' date='Feb 27 2007, 04:28 PM']You didn't address what happens to venial sins. At least most have venial sins when they die.
You said God cleans small things that are already forgiven. How did the venial sins get forgiven in the first place?[/quote]

Going to mass forgives venial sins

[jesussaves]

But you aren't at mass just before you die, almost always. People commit venial sins everyday right?

I suppose you could argue your intention to go to Mass forgives the sins. But, you also have intention to commit venial sins again

It does seem somewhat legal/technical, if not a legal theory per se, to say by doing one thing you're forgiven of another.

Edited February 27, 2007 by jesussaves

[CatholicCid]

Venial also don't cut off our relationship with God, just cut at it. They do not need the grace of absolution. They can be remitted by prayer, contrition, fervent communion, ect...

[Jaime]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1205437' date='Feb 27 2007, 04:44 PM']But you aren't at mass just before you die, almost always. People commit venial sins everyday right?

I suppose you could argue your intention to go to Mass forgives the sins. But, you also have intention to commit venial sins again

It does seem somewhat legal/technical, if not a legal theory per se, to say by doing one thing you're forgiven of another.[/quote]

If the forgiveness of venial sins through the sacrifice of Mass seems somewhat legal or technical, then you must believe that salvation only through accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior is also somewhat legal or technical.

[FullTruth]

Jesus Saves.

I really appreciate your article. It is true we are saved by faith. But by attacking right now, you show yourself more of a Pharisee than a Publican.

All religious spirit's need to be renounced if human beings can come together and see the true threat that is facing us.

Catholics lay people aren't to blame. It is the elite who are casting their religious spells and spirits onto the world to seperate us that are to blame.

I ask you humbly, cast out the religious spirit that has taken hold of you. Show your faith in the name of Jesus Christ, Yehshua, YHWH our saving cry, and cast out the religious demon that has attached itself to you. I shall pray for you right now.

[FullTruth]

I have to say that the Catholics are right about Baptism.

Baptism remits sins. It washes you clean of all sins and spirits that have attached themselves to you.

That was how Baptism was taught to me when I became a believer, which is why I gratefully accepted it. Who wouldn't want all the evils in your life washed from you, so you can be clean. After I was baptized, I felt clean for the first time in my life, which is exactly what I feel like right now, clean. I am at absolute peace with myself and the world around me.