What Do You Put Your Faith In

[jesussaves]

Here is an interesting article:
[quote]Are you a Pharisee or a Publican?

Do you consider yourself a moral and religious person? Do you feel that you’re good enough to merit heaven?

Once the Lord Jesus told a parable to “some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else” (Luke 18:9-14):

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

By human standards the Pharisee was a good, exemplary citizen, and more zealous in his religion than most of us. This man was quite unlike the notorious publican who had nothing to offer God.

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

Conscious of his spiritual poverty and unworthiness, this miserable man stood afar off and he would not even raise his eyes from the ground. His only qualification was ‘I am a sinner’; he came before God empty-handed, begging for mercy.

Well then, who are you – the Pharisee or the tax collector?

Perhaps you protest that unlike the Pharisee you are not bragging about your good works nor are you looking down on others, and that, most importantly, you ascribe the merit of your works to the grace of God who enables you to live a godly life. But so did the Pharisee of the parable; he also attributed his good character and his achievements to God and thanked him for them.

What if you continue to rely on your works – albeit done by the grace of God – to merit eternal life? Will you be counted as righteous by God and admitted to heaven?

No, you will be not. You will be sent to hell with all your good works. For Jesus concludes:

I tell you that this man (the publican), rather than the other (the Pharisee), went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

The sinner is justified; the “good” man is not! For the “good” man is too proud to see that he too is a sinner and worthy of condemnation just like everybody else.

May God open your eyes to see yourself as you really are, a sinner, and humble your heart that you may ask for what you do not deserve, mercy! He will justify you if, renouncing all confidence in yourself, you place your faith in Christ Jesus.[/quote]


Bottomline: what do you put your faith for salvation in? Jesus, or your works through Jesus? If you are trying to say your works through Jesus, I think you'll admit if you are honest with God that it's ultimately your works. If that is the case, you are going to hell.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Bottomline: what do you put your faith for salvation in?[/quote][img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/cross.jpg[/img]

This.

[quote]Jesus, or your works through Jesus? If you are trying to say your works through Jesus, I think you'll admit if you are honest with God that it's ultimately your works.[/quote]

I think you need to do a little more research into what the Church understands by salvation and justification. We believe that faith and works are inextricably bound together. You can't have one without the other.

[quote]If that is the case, you are going to hell.[/quote]

Catholics do not believe that w can ever be totally sure about who is going to Hell. We don't have the necessary qualifications to judge people. If you have that confidence, there is something wrong.

[jesussaves]

I feel sorry you think faith and works are inextricably linked for salvation. Yes they are inextricably linked in that you must progress if you have faith. But you will never gain perfection, but doesn't mean you don't have faith. We are inherently sinful. Do you really believe the saints who lived in the Catholic Churh never sinned at the end of their life? Of course they did. Even without a completed perfected body by works you can have saving faith. That is the glory of the gosple. Catholics teach you have to be perfected by works. That will never happen in this lifetime. From what I can see of the human condition will never happen in purgatory either. You are putting yoru faith in purgatory and your works.

I think you'd agree anyone that does not have faith and lives a life of sin and rejects what they know to be true is going to hell. True we cannot ultimately know, but we should not be so smug to say nothing. Same goes for someone who does not rely on Jesus alone.

Edited February 24, 2007 by jesussaves

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Hey JS, thanks for the article. It is definitely true that we should not thank God only as a sort of "cover" for our bragging. I know I have a tendency to do that sometimes. Good works do not save, as the Catholic Church teaches. Thanks for reminding us of that fundamental truth that it is living faith which saves, that is, faith acting through love. It is our faith-lived-out which saves us, and when our faith is lived out, it is not we who live, but God who lives in us, and thus all our works of faith are God's works. Thus God saves us by working in us through faith, and we accept salvation by cooperating, that is, by being open to His work of faith in us.

God bless.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote]I feel sorry you think faith and works are inextricably linked for salvation[/quote]

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: [b]but faith that [i]worketh[/i] by charity[/b].

Galatians 5:6

[jesussaves]

We are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. -Martin Luther
Think about it.
You have to progress, but you'll never reach perfection in this life, even as a cooperater with God's grace. And you'll never reach it in purgatory either given the human condition and free will. Stop trusting in your works and fancy footwork to say you're not. Trust in Jesus alone or you'll be damned.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204021' date='Feb 24 2007, 05:01 PM']We are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. -Martin Luther
Think about it.
You have to progress, but you'll never reach perfection in this life, even as a cooperater with God's grace. And you'll never reach it in purgatory either given the human condition and free will. Stop trusting in your works and fancy footwork to say you're not. Trust in Jesus alone or you'll be damned.[/quote]

Are you saying that Christ's grace is not enough to perfect us?

[jesussaves]

if the grace requires a human being to cooperate with it, yes.

do you honestly think you're going to ever be perfect?
at this point you'll say "sure with Christ's grace" instead of acknowledging that no one could ever do it.

help me understand how you think it's possible. don't just say anything's possible. put it in realistic terms.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204154' date='Feb 24 2007, 06:51 PM']if the grace requires a human being to cooperate with it, yes.

do you honestly think you're going to ever be perfect?
at this point you'll say "sure with Christ's grace" instead of acknowledging that no one could ever do it.

help me understand how you think it's possible. don't just say anything's possible. put it in realistic terms.[/quote]
Christ's grace gives us the strength to do what is right. We won't always cooperate with it, but if we are determined enough to do so (which is itself a gift of God), then God's grace can lead us to perfection. Most will not reach it in this life...even few saints did. You act as if our cooperation is completely human, but it is also guided by grace. Our Lord, like a good dancer, leads not only by looking into our eyes and calling us forward, but by placing His hand on our back to give our movements the force necessary to achieve His will.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1203914' date='Feb 24 2007, 12:11 PM']Bottomline: what do you put your faith for salvation in? Jesus, or your works through Jesus? If you are trying to say your works through Jesus, I think you'll admit if you are honest with God that it's ultimately your works. If that is the case, you are going to hell.[/quote]


Phillipians 2:12: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, [color="#FF0000"]work out your own salvation with fear and trembling[/color];
13: for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

James 1:22: But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23: For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;
24: for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
25: But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.

James 2:14: What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
16: and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
17: So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18: But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19: You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
20: Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22: You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
23: and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204021' date='Feb 24 2007, 05:01 PM']We are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. -Martin Luther
Think about it.
You have to progress, but you'll never reach perfection in this life, even as a cooperater with God's grace. And you'll never reach it in purgatory either given the human condition and free will. Stop trusting in your works and fancy footwork to say you're not. Trust in Jesus alone or you'll be damned.[/quote]

WE don't have to reach perfection, but we are required to strive for it. We are judged when we die, purgatory is simply the place of cleansing not of further effort on our part, since nothing impure can enter heaven. We don't trust our works to get us there, they won't, but they are evcidence of faith, since faith without works is dead.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]We are inherently sinful.[/quote]No, we are not. That's just illogical. We are made in the image and likeness of God, so there is no way that we can be [i]inherently[/i] sinful - unless, of course, you are going to argue that God changed His design template after the Fall or that He Himself is intrinsically evil. Human beings are innately good. However, we have been seriously tarnished by sin. This doesn't mean that we're rotten to the core, as the word 'inherently' suggests. Calvinistic theology makes very little sense at all.

[quote]But you will never gain perfection, but doesn't mean you don't have faith.[/quote]

Again, that's an oxymoron. "I have faith in my daughter, but she'll never pass her exams. I have faith in my parents, but they'll never be able to take care of me when I need them the most. I have faith in God, but I'll never gain perfection." Don't you see? To have faith in God is to believe that all things are possible, otherwise you are basically setting out terms and conditions for Him to abide by: "I have faith, [b]but[/b]..." What's the point in having faith if it's got a but attached?

Glancing at your post history, I can see that you have discussed this topic extensively on PhatMass - and in several posts you have actually agreed with the Catholic view. What is there to be gained by resurrecting the subject again?

[jesussaves]

when i agreed it was agreeing that it does seem in a certain sense better to say we are not only legally perfect but really perfect. then i realized toward the end of my posts that i had strong reservation about the idea that we could ever achieve perfection. i never really debated that here but agreed to disagree. i feel i am doing you injustice to let you think it's even possible for you ever to become perfect through your own efforts, albeit graced by God.

the passages by cmom prove nothing. "fear and trembling" could mean that you are to work out the salvation you have already achieved in awe. i'm also open ot the idea that one can lose their salvation but not working. note again, you MUST progress. but you will never become perfect.
the james passage proves nothing. works are required. we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. same goes for the other passage, that we must all be doers of the word.

cmom says that purgatory requires no more effort on our part. that goes against a major criticism i have that you put your faith in purgatory, where even if it existed, you wouldn't achieve perfection because of human condition. what exactly happens in purgatory?

Edited February 26, 2007 by jesussaves

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204621' date='Feb 25 2007, 09:11 PM']when i agreed it was agreeing that it does seem in a certain sense better to say we are not only legally perfect but really perfect. then i realized toward the end of my posts that i had strong reservation about the idea that we could ever achieve perfection. i never really debated that here but agreed to disagree. i feel i am doing you injustice to let you think it's even possible for you ever to become perfect through your own efforts, albeit graced by God.
[color="#FF0000"]No here has EVER claimed we would reach perfection, I said we need to try. The New Testament says so [/color]

the passages by cmom prove nothing. "fear and trembling" could mean that you are to work out the salvation you have already achieved in awe.
[color="#FF0000"]Salvation is not achieved until death, we will only know if we are aved when God judges it so.[/color]
i'm also open to the idea that one can lose their salvation but not working. note again, you MUST progress. but you will never become perfect.

[color="#FF0000"]Anyone can lose salvation by sinning. Again no one here ever said we could become perfect on earth.[/color]
the james passage proves nothing. works are required. we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. same goes for the other passage, that we must all be doers of the word.

[color="#FF0000"]We are saved by faith, but never Faith alone[/color]

cmom says that purgatory requires no more effort on our part. that goes against a major criticism i have that you put your faith in purgatory, where even if it existed, you wouldn't achieve perfection because of human condition. what exactly happens in purgatory?

[color="#FF0000"]After we die, if we are not condemned to hell, and are not yet ready for heaven [with our soul still containing imperfections] we are cleansed in purgatory. Rev. 21:27 , 2 Macc. 12:43-45, 1 Cor. 3:10-15[/color][/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

Just to add a little bit to CMOM...[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204621' date='Feb 25 2007, 09:11 PM']when i agreed it was agreeing that it does seem in a certain sense better to say we are not only legally perfect but really perfect.[/quote]This is the distinction between the Catholic Faith and Luther, who believed that we were dung covered in snow (paraphasing the quote).

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204621' date='Feb 25 2007, 09:11 PM']then i realized toward the end of my posts that i had strong reservation about the idea that we could ever achieve perfection. i never really debated that here but agreed to disagree. i feel i am doing you injustice to let you think it's even possible for you ever to become perfect through your own efforts, albeit graced by God.[/quote]If it were by the grace of God, it wouldn't be "through our own efforts." Right?

Anyway, the issue of "perfection" must begin by defining the term. In the case of the Christian view, we have to consider that Our Lord Himself actually commanded us to "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt 5:48). For more on Christian perfection:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11665b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11665b.htm[/url]
This perfection is not the perfection of heaven.

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204621' date='Feb 25 2007, 09:11 PM']the passages by cmom prove nothing. "fear and trembling" could mean that you are to work out the salvation you have already achieved in awe. i'm also open ot the idea that one can lose their salvation but not working. note again, you MUST progress. but you will never become perfect.[/quote]So why would Our Lord ask for the impossible? By the grace of God, all things are possible.

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1204621' date='Feb 25 2007, 09:11 PM']cmom says that purgatory requires no more effort on our part. that goes against a major criticism i have that you put your faith in purgatory, where even if it existed, you wouldn't achieve perfection because of human condition. what exactly happens in purgatory?[/quote]I think you may actually be close to understanding purgatory. Christians believe that nothing imperfect can enter heaven. You yourself have claimed that we cannot achieve perfection in this life. By this logic, no one can enter heaven. As a solution to this problem, Christians believe that any imperfections that remain in a saved soul would be cleansed before entering heaven. In the process of purgatory, a purifying fire (1 Cor 3:15) perfects us, removing any attachments (i.e. concupiscence), so that we only desire unity with God.

I'd be interested to hear how you believe "imperfect" Christians (i.e. every Christian, by your statements) would enter heaven, and see if there are any differences with what I wrote.