Exorcism And Psychological Illnesses

[Phazzan]

I don't think there's any relationship between demonic possession and mental illness. There is no emperic evidence to suggest demons even exist, let alone exoricism actually works in "possessed" or mentally ill people. Psychiatry and demonic possession are mutually exclusive in the sense one is a common and accepted as fact in society and the other is extremely rare and based entirely on faith and superstition.

[Fidei Defensor]

lol. demons.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Deb' post='1468568' date='Feb 25 2008, 10:52 AM']Here is what the Mayo says about schizophrenia:

It's not known what causes schizophrenia. However, researchers believe that an interaction of genetics and environment may cause schizophrenia. Problems with certain naturally occurring brain chemicals, including the neurotransmitters dopamine and glutamate, also may contribute to schizophrenia. Neuroimaging studies show differences in the brain structure and central nervous system of people with schizophrenia. While researchers aren't fully certain about the significance of these changes, they support evidence that schizophrenia is a brain disease.
Schizophrenia affects about 1 percent of the general population. In people who have close relatives with schizophrenia, the illness is much more common — about 10 percent. In men, schizophrenia symptoms typically start in the teens or 20s. In women, schizophrenia symptoms typically begin in the 20s or early 30s.

Although the precise cause of schizophrenia isn't known, researchers have identified certain factors that seem to increase the risk of developing or triggering schizophrenia, including: [list]
[*]Having a family history of schizophrenia
[*]Exposure to viruses while in the womb
[*]Malnutrition while in the womb
[*]Stressful life circumstances
[*]Older paternal age
[*]Taking psychoactive drugs during adolescence
[/list]

I do know someone who became schizophrenic after one too many LSD trips. LSD interupts the interaction between nerve cells and seratonin and creates vivid sights, sounds, feelings that are very real but, do not exist. Everything gets mixed up and you can hear color or see sound. Nothing is real.
Schizophrenia seems to be related to that experience and I really can't see that as being the devil in someone. Just a badly wired brain.
That doesn't mean that some people's mental illnesses aren't touched by the devil. If you are depressed, I believe he can whisper in your ear that you should end it. Does that mean everyone depressed needs an exorcism? No. Prayers should and do help.

I had given my priest a list of about 50 books I had but, hadn't read yet and asked him to mark off the top three to five he thought I should read first at this stage of my conversion or to recommend others that are not on there. The first thing he did was completely cross out Fr. Amorth's book and told me that he did not recommend that I read that at all or not for a long time. He said that if I was interested and wanted a fairly true theological example of exorcism, to watch a movie about someone named Rose? I wrote it down somewhere. He said the drama wasn't accurate but the process was. So, I put Amorth away.[/quote]
I love the Mayo clinic's website! So easy to use. It's a great reference for my pathophysiology class!

And the movie he was referring to was probably The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Not for people who are really jumpy or prone to overactive imaginations while having panic attacks in theology class.

[mortify]

Maybe there is a demonic element to the psychological disorder, and an exorcism or prayer of deliverance can't hurt. In fact, I remember reading in Fr Amorth's book that the key signs of demonic possession usually come about during an exorcism, not before.

[mortify]

[quote name='Deb' post='1468568' date='Feb 25 2008, 11:52 AM']<snip>
The first thing he did was completely cross out Fr. Amorth's book and told me that he did not recommend that I read that at all or not for a long time. He said that if I was interested and wanted a fairly true theological example of exorcism, to watch a movie about someone named Rose? I wrote it down somewhere. He said the drama wasn't accurate but the process was. So, I put Amorth away.[/quote]

Did he mention any reason why the book is bad? Fr Amorth is the chief exorcist in Rome and president of an organization of exorcists, seems like the right guy to write about the topic.

I liked Malachi Martin's book _Hostage to the Devil_ but I took that more as an entertaining read than factual exposition.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Deb' post='1469423' date='Feb 26 2008, 07:37 PM']Hmmm, do you mean besides Our Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles?[/quote]
Hmmm, yes.

Edited February 27, 2008 by carrdero

[Aloysius]

there are many exorcists in the Church who all have experience with genuine demons. of course, you don't believe in demons and as such would not believe that they do have genuine experience, but no less, they work with teams of medical and psychological experts to determine whether there is a medical cause and still find themselves necessary to exorcise.

in any event I find your position quite boring to the thread... it's an interesting discussion amongst those who believe that demons exist as to whether they have any affect on psychological disorders... obviously those who don't believe in demons won't think they have anything to do with such disorders.

I think the important thing is that psychological illnesses are never written off as just demonic and the medical route is taken regardless, but it seems that in addition to such medical things, exorcisms or deliverance prayers cannot hurt. I suppose the cynics of the world would look at that and say that we do not really believe it's demons, but if we hold that the demonic influence has a physical effect then dealing with both the spiritual and the physical would make perfect sense.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1469850' date='Feb 27 2008, 10:12 AM']I think the important thing is that psychological illnesses are never written off as just demonic and the medical route is taken regardless, but it seems that in addition to such medical things, [b]exorcisms or deliverance prayers cannot hurt.[/b][/quote]

The film 'The Exorcism of Emily Rose' is based loosely on a true story of a German girl who died as a result of an exorcism performed by local clergy. The court found the priests involved and her parents guilty of manslaughter and the Church later denied she was ever possessed. Therefore, exorcisms can not only hurt, they can kill.

[Paddington]

[quote name='mortify' post='1469666' date='Feb 27 2008, 02:24 AM']Did he mention any reason why the book is bad?[/quote]

I took it as the book not being bad. Just not that useful for growing in the faith.
Good book or not, it is "tabloid-y" compared to well-written summaries of the faith and admonition books like Imitation of Christ.

[carrdero]

[quote]Aloysius writes: there are many exorcists in the Church who all have experience with genuine demons.[/quote]
A person who appears to be possessed by an entity who spews vomit while profanely rejecting Christ isn’t someone I would consider possessed by a demon (this person could possibly be expressing the personality of an ill atheist). I remember a thread on Phatmass where we all couldn’t even determine why the devil was bad or even what evil was so I find it very difficult that anyone has ever become an authority on “demons”. I do know of some people who have had training and experience and are quite adept at handling the mentally challenged. My wife worked at a home with mentally handicapped individuals and can attribute that they display some of the behaviors as expressed with people who have been diagnosed as “possessed” but she certainly has never had the need to call a religious authority to placate them or the need to label them with derogatory terms like “demons”.

[quote]Aloysius writes: you don't believe in demons and as such would not believe that they do have genuine experience, but no less, they work with teams of medical and psychological experts to determine whether there is a medical cause and still find themselves necessary to exorcise.[/quote]

I believe that there are negative and positive entities (in this sense positive and negative does not mean “good” or “bad” but is defined as helpful or unhelpful towards [b][i]BEing[/i][/b][i][/i] or [b][i]relating to[/i][/b][i][/i]) and that these aspects can have an influence on our lives. I must remind you again that this is no reason for name-calling and judgment. If you remember from the abortion thread, I believe that it is not possible for two souls to occupy the same physical body (consider it a perfect natural design defense if you will) which leads me to support that the “demon possession” phenomenon (past and present) is a possible psychological condition or DISease.

I feel that people who have the need, the desire, the hope and faith to believe in the existence of demons (and the evil they supposedly incur and impose) in the absence of substantial or tangible evidence an interesting mental DIS-ease also worthy of further psychological study.

The faith that some people profess in the medical and psychological field is also misplaced. Medical science and psychology may have come a long way but there is still much to be discovered about the human mind and the behavior it produces. Blanketing these issues with the religious faith of demons and the faith in our psychological understanding of mind and medicine certainly isn’t going to help these individuals (in [b][i]relating to [/i][/b][i][/i]the [b][i]BEing[/i][/b][i][/i] of the mentally handicapped it is not positive or conducive but negative and detrimental).

[quote]Aloysius writes: in any event I find your position quite boring to the thread...[/quote]

I’m sure it is. Demons are dramatic, to some exciting. Ever since this conflict was introduced in the Garden of Eden authors have used this device to produce interesting and entertaining struggles in some of the most profound stories throughout our history. The faith that some people profess to good against evil has tickled people’s imaginations and strengthened people’s hope for centuries.

[quote]Aloysius writes: I suppose the cynics of the world would look at that and say that we do not really believe it's demons, but if we hold that the demonic influence has a physical effect then dealing with both the spiritual and the physical would make perfect sense.[/quote]

I am also sure that if it was ever evidenced and concluded that there were no such things as demons that this fact would disappoint many people (and being found incorrect and disappointed isn’t very exciting or a position people strive for). All the stories that people have read, all the movies that they have seen, all the news reports of people doing bad, even going to church would lose great appeal for many. It would mean that people would have to be accountable for themselves and would also take away their sense of judgment and blame.

[quote]Aloysius writes: it's an interesting discussion amongst those who believe that demons exist as to whether they have any affect on psychological disorders...[/quote]

It is an interesting discussion which is why I have entered the debate arena to post my understanding, knowledge and experience on the subject (which appears to be contrary to yours). I am also wondering why no one has thought outside of the standard doctrines but instead have adhered to primitive superstitions and the practice of slinging common, simple judgments. For someone to call another entity (physical or spiritual) a “demon” thoughtlessly carrries the same amount of offense and insult as using racial or ethnic slurs against people of different cultures or the severity of women who profess to disliking being called the “c” word. This cannot be positive towards understanding the cause and cure of psychological illnesses and disorders.

Edited February 28, 2008 by carrdero

[peach_cube]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1469753' date='Feb 27 2008, 05:55 AM']Hmmm, yes.[/quote]

"An Exorcist Tells His Story" by Fr. Gabrielle Amorth

[picchick]

I do not have time to read the whole thread (I think that this might annoy some of you) but here is my two cents:

I have had a mental health clinical in which some of the patients confided in me that they heard voices. One was at the time hearing voices and the other said that sometimes she hears voices. I kinda freaked out inside with one of them because being a student nurse, I never experienced that before and had no clue what to do. So I just talked to her. She was in no way possessed. She had this innocence to her that was very childlike. She talked to me earlier and I could see that. The other people who heard voices were the same. They were just hearing voices because they were sick. There was also a test done (I am not sure where) that if they looked at a scan of the brain, there is actually activity happening in the area of hearing. It is kinda cool I think that even if there are not really voices talking and it is "in their head" they can still have brain activity as if the "person" were right in front of them.

Anyway, the voices are usually never good yet, I don't think that they come from the devil. I think that possessions and illnesses are different (as some people have already mentioned). However, I do not see any problems using prayer as a way of healing. We use the Anointing of the Sick when someone is in the hospital. It is wholistic care: caring for the body and the soul at once. The patient would have to consent to it or they would have to be ok with it being done.

It is like an example that my one teacher gave us once. There was Native American man who was sick. The day my teacher had him as a patient, he said that the only way he was going to get better was if his medicine man were to come in and perform a ritual. So the staff set the room up as the man needed it to be for the ritual. The medicine man came and performed the ritual and in a couple of days the man got better. I think that this can be applied to exorcisms and mental illness.

Meg

[Jeff]

[quote name='mortify' post='1469666' date='Feb 27 2008, 12:54 AM']Did he mention any reason why the book is bad? Fr Amorth is the chief exorcist in Rome and president of an organization of exorcists, seems like the right guy to write about the topic.[/quote]

Indeed! That's why he considered it "bad". The overwhelming majority of Preists, while they can't admit it, don't really believe in demons.

[quote name='mortify' post='1469666' date='Feb 27 2008, 12:54 AM']I liked Malachi Martin's book _Hostage to the Devil_ but I took that more as an entertaining read than factual exposition.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. Just because it's entertaining doesn't mean it's not factual. The late, M. Scott Peck knew Malachi Martin personally. His last book - "Glimpses of the Devil: A Psychiatrist's Personal Accounts of Possession, Exorcism, and Redemption", recounts his association with Father Martin. Although a sincere Christian, when Peck first met Malachi Martin, he didn't really believe in Demonic possession.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='picchick' post='1475895' date='Mar 11 2008, 07:46 PM']I do not have time to read the whole thread (I think that this might annoy some of you) but here is my two cents:

I have had a mental health clinical in which some of the patients confided in me that they heard voices. One was at the time hearing voices and the other said that sometimes she hears voices. I kinda freaked out inside with one of them because being a student nurse, I never experienced that before and had no clue what to do. So I just talked to her. She was in no way possessed. She had this innocence to her that was very childlike. She talked to me earlier and I could see that. The other people who heard voices were the same. They were just hearing voices because they were sick. There was also a test done (I am not sure where) that if they looked at a scan of the brain, there is actually activity happening in the area of hearing. It is kinda cool I think that even if there are not really voices talking and it is "in their head" they can still have brain activity as if the "person" were right in front of them.

Anyway, the voices are usually never good yet, I don't think that they come from the devil. I think that possessions and illnesses are different (as some people have already mentioned). However, I do not see any problems using prayer as a way of healing. We use the Anointing of the Sick when someone is in the hospital. It is wholistic care: caring for the body and the soul at once. The patient would have to consent to it or they would have to be ok with it being done.

It is like an example that my one teacher gave us once. There was Native American man who was sick. The day my teacher had him as a patient, he said that the only way he was going to get better was if his medicine man were to come in and perform a ritual. So the staff set the room up as the man needed it to be for the ritual. The medicine man came and performed the ritual and in a couple of days the man got better. I think that this can be applied to exorcisms and mental illness.

Meg[/quote]

I think is is a great post, and should be read by more people, though I have to admit a couple of things here.

Some mental Illness are chemical. Some mental illnesses and hearing voices are not.

I have intimated how I have committed the sin of iniquity, and I want to talk about how that happened.

When I first started to believe in Jesus Christ, it was simplistic. I repented of my sins before an altar at a Pentecostal church. That night I was baptized. At that moment, in my soul, there was a great peace - I knew I was in God's hands forever. Over time, I really got deeply involved in my faith. I would pray in Tongues for hours, and read the bible. As I read, my body would be filled up with a fire that burned through my entire body. I lived as if I could do no wrong because 'God' was with me always. I tried to force my beliefs on everybody for weeks, and in the end, I did some very evil things in the name of my faith.

Fortunately, over time, I meet a great friend in Missouri named Rick. We meet in a forum, much like this one. He had a mission there, kinda like what I am doing right now. He wanted to make all the imposters on the board come out against him by posting up things they wouldn't be able to stand.

One day, I started to spout out my spiritual nonsense, with great love, he corrected me, and then, that mental illness of spirits talking to my mind all the time had come to a great halt. When I realized he was right, and that great fire that burned in my life was an illness caused by evil spirits, I did the only thing I could do, I started to cast each and every single one of them into the Bottomless pit, because above all else, I must be saved.

So, when I say, iniquity is saying something is of God that isn't, take note. Yes, spirits talk to you. They make you believe all sorts of nonsense. They will take you out of the simplicity that is Jesus Christ. They will deceive you, because once they have hold, they don't want to let go.

Now, I have to admit, much of that I am in God's hands peace I felt on the night I repented and was baptized is how I feel right now. God just needed a few years of being driven mad by spirits to recreate the peace of knowing and loving Christ again.

Edited May 2, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Jeff' post='1476846' date='Mar 13 2008, 02:38 PM']Indeed! That's why he considered it "bad". The overwhelming majority of Preists, while they can't admit it, don't really believe in demons.[/quote]
I've been looking for you all my life! You can read other people's minds and souls!! How could anyone argue against you!!!