Exorcism And Psychological Illnesses

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1202971' date='Feb 23 2007, 01:49 AM']I have no interest in convincing science that skitzophrenia is caused by demons any more than I have any interest in convincing science of the existence of the soul. It is not science's domain to determine whether there is a soul or whether there is a demonic influence on skitzophrenia or not; just like it is not science's domain to determine whether there is a God. Science describes the physical world and immediate causation; it cannot explain philosophic ultimate causation. there are the chemical imbalances caused by genes and environment; but why would there be a humanity with faulty genes? and why would there be dangerous environments in human societies? they could come up with immediate causes for those on a physical level; but the philosophic "why"? can never be answered by physical sciences... precisely because they are [i]physical[/i] sciences.

yes, skitzophrenia is a very serious disease and it should be dealt with by psychologists. the question I would pose is: what is the harm in alsos dealing with it by rites of exorcism? even if they only work because they are wanted to work, that would still be a good. and they might possibly work good on supernatural substantial levels which needn't be proven by physical sciences.[/quote]


Here's the thing. Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that is truly caused by a chemical imbalance. A lot of people think its people "hearing voices" which does happen. But that is a symptom and there is a whole lot happening besides that. The cliff notes version is that schizophrenics have lost their ability to fiddler extraneous stimuli. For example, while I type this, I can notice that
[list]
[*]my dog is sleeping next to me
[*]the clock is ticking
[*]the furnace came on
[*]there are cars driving outside my door
[*]I notice that I'm sitting on my jacket
[*]etc
[/list]
All of these things and dozens more stimuli are being ignored while I type my response. That way I can focus on the task at hand. If I couldn't fiddler these out, I'd get less done than I do. (Ok I'd get nothing done) Schizophrenics have no ability to fiddler those out and it causes an overload. Its like flipping a breaker switch. To compensate, the mind creates different things to get some semblance of order. But the stuff that the mind creates is so bizarre, that people see it and think "wow that guy is nuts"(which is an accurate assessment)

So in the case of authentic schizophrenia, I don't think an exorcism would do anything positive. It would seem like one delusion fighting with the delusion going on inside the person's head. Drugs are the only thing that will benefit.

Anyway, I thought it would be necessary to give an overview on the disease. Lots of folks (not saying anyone here would) confuse schizophrenia with multiple personalities and other illnesses.

Now folks can "hear voices" and be delusional or possessed. Then it might be helpful.(In the latter case, definitely helpful.

folks can have a delusional disorder that is not a chemical imbalance but brought about by guilty feelings. Guilt is a powerful emotion in creating delusions. I think an exorcism would give a temporary benefit to those people, but I think they would be back for more.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1202912' date='Feb 22 2007, 09:08 PM']Al, have you read about the three types of demonic activity of that sort? There is possession, obsession, and oppression.

The book, "An Interview with an Exorcist" gives a good outline of the differences and the importance of involving the medical community.

I do not have the book, and I cannot quote it exactly, but when it comes to oppresion and obsession one is from inside (like mental/spiritual torment) and the other is external (physical manifestations/threats).

BTW,... here is a rather interesting website on [url="http://www.catholicwarfare.com/"][b]Catholic Spiritual Warfare.[/b][/url] It has some quotes from JPII. [/quote]
also, i think [u]An Exorcist Tells His Story[/u] also talks about the medical community and a priest working together to help a 'patient'

[Aloysius]

I am agreeing that skitzophrenia is directly caused by chemical imbalances, and that those chemical imbalances are cuased by a mix of genetics and environments/experiences and their affect on the brain.

The question is: could all of these physical symptoms have some type of demonic connection?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not all cases of skitzophrenia can be immediately, if at all, healed by drugs. Most can only be helped and regulated. That is good, of course, but what if in addition to the drugs' help and regulation there were minor exorcisms performed. Not necessarily full-fledged exorcisms where the exorcist engages in conversation the possessed person who speaks with the voice of a demon; but a minor exorcism as in the exorcism of a location or an object applied to the location around the person and even the person's body itself.

I'm not talkng about saying to the skitzophrenic "the power of Christ compels you!"; I'm talking about engaging possible demons around the skitzophrenic in his presence commanding them to leave the skitzophrenic alone... but it could certainly be harmful to speak to the skitzophrenic as if he himself was the demon (as you would speak to someone who has a full-scale possession)

It seems to me that illnesses dealing with the psyche are a direct assault on human free will and human nature; and as such are the result of some evil in some manner. Is it solely the sin of adam? Or is it the meddling of other spiritual beings? These are the philosophical questions that arise from science's good understanding of the physical causes of mental disorders.

Psychological disorders, in striking at the very heart of human nature and free will, are far different on a philosophical level than regular physical illnesses.

Attacking human free will and causing confusion and false perceptions of the world like connections where there are none seems to be the Modus Operandi of Fallen Angels; whereas a mere weakening of free will leaning it towards a tendency to choose evil seems more the MO of Original Sin. I think it might be quite helpful to include minor exorcisms and even sometimes full-fledged exorcisms (depending on the case and exact symptoms) for people even if they are diagnosed with a psychological disorder. Skitzophrenia, even if it does not include hearing voices, could also be helped. Sure, treat them psychologically and let the exorcisms be incorporated in such a way as it is not some competition between the psychologist and exorcist to see who can fix the patient; do not perform explicit exorcisms at a time when the psychologist thinks the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons... but when the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons the priest could still say many prayers and rebukes against demons silently.

especially for those psychologically ill who are believers, the presence and imagery of the priest being there along with other symbols of goodness may help him against his delusions if they are only delusions (obviously if they are more than that, we know the priest would also be doing good). careful and precise cooperation between the preist and the psychologist could be quite helpful.

hmmmm

[Mr.Cat]

Demonic influence does not suggest demonic possession or even diabolical possession. Persons can be influenced by evil spirits and thus have conditions relating to them, or it is possible that their condition was caused by them but the influence has later left...

Regardless it does not “hurt” generally speaking to have some prayers said for the person or allowing a Priest (when proper investigation is completed or the person willingly asks for it) to perform such rituals on the person. [b]Although, the Priest should be weary of any misunderstandings the person may have concerning exorcisms that may entice further misunderstanding or emotional harm[/b].

But as Catholics we cannot allow any person to remain under the influence, possession, or more dramatically diabolical possession of an evil spirit for on our part it is a lack of charity. Similarly [b]such exorcisms should be performed with charity in mind to the person being helped[/b]. It would be much like a Priest holding back the facility of confession when there is the concern that an unconfessed mortal sin is present, which in the same spirit would not be charitable to do nothing about.

[b]As a Catholic I obey and submit myself to the laws of the Church regarding exorcism [u]because I do not know everything on the topic and she is the one in rightful judgment in this matter[/u][/b]. P[b][/b]riests and Faithful likewise should obey such directives and those of the Bishop when it is applicable.

[b]We ought to always and frequently as Catholics renounce and reject Satan, the Fallen Angels, and Sin in all their vanities, allurements, and false glory submitting ourselves praising Almighty God in His Holy Church, the Bride of Christ, the Catholic Church[/b].

Edited February 24, 2007 by Mr.CatholicCat

[track2004]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1203582' date='Feb 23 2007, 06:32 PM']I am agreeing that skitzophrenia is directly caused by chemical imbalances, and that those chemical imbalances are cuased by a mix of genetics and environments/experiences and their affect on the brain.

The question is: could all of these physical symptoms have some type of demonic connection?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not all cases of skitzophrenia can be immediately, if at all, healed by drugs. Most can only be helped and regulated. That is good, of course, but what if in addition to the drugs' help and regulation there were minor exorcisms performed. Not necessarily full-fledged exorcisms where the exorcist engages in conversation the possessed person who speaks with the voice of a demon; but a minor exorcism as in the exorcism of a location or an object applied to the location around the person and even the person's body itself.[/quote]

You're right, not every person with Schizophrenia can be helped immediately with drugs, and honestly none of them are ever "cured" because the medicine only treats the symptoms, we can't "fix" it. The problem with your suggestion about "minor exorcisms" is that with the right drug program they won't see people or hear voices. The drugs fix the chemical imbalance and stop the misfiring and confusion that some schizophrenics have.

The other thing is that schizophrenics may, in some cases, see things or hear voices, but they don't exhibit signs of "possession". They aren't speaking in the voice of a deamon or spewing slip pea soup or anything.

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1203582' date='Feb 23 2007, 06:32 PM']It seems to me that illnesses dealing with the psyche are a direct assault on human free will and human nature; and as such are the result of some evil in some manner. Is it solely the sin of adam? Or is it the meddling of other spiritual beings? These are the philosophical questions that arise from science's good understanding of the physical causes of mental disorders.

Psychological disorders, in striking at the very heart of human nature and free will, are far different on a philosophical level than regular physical illnesses.

Attacking human free will and causing confusion and false perceptions of the world like connections where there are none seems to be the Modus Operandi of Fallen Angels; whereas a mere weakening of free will leaning it towards a tendency to choose evil seems more the MO of Original Sin. I think it might be quite helpful to include minor exorcisms and even sometimes full-fledged exorcisms (depending on the case and exact symptoms) for people even if they are diagnosed with a psychological disorder. Skitzophrenia, even if it does not include hearing voices, could also be helped. Sure, treat them psychologically and let the exorcisms be incorporated in such a way as it is not some competition between the psychologist and exorcist to see who can fix the patient; do not perform explicit exorcisms at a time when the psychologist thinks the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons... but when the person's psyche is not in a state to respond well to hearing the mention of demons the priest could still say many prayers and rebukes against demons silently.

especially for those psychologically ill who are believers, the presence and imagery of the priest being there along with other symbols of goodness may help him against his delusions if they are only delusions (obviously if they are more than that, we know the priest would also be doing good). careful and precise cooperation between the preist and the psychologist could be quite helpful.

hmmmm[/quote]

Psych disorders do affect the mind and free will differently than physical disorders, but arguably, they both affect free will or at least the mind. I wouldn't go so far to say they are "evil" to any greater degree than physical illnesses. They all stink, but they are part of life and part of being human. Schizophrenia affects 1% of everyone, with no correlation to ethnicity or country or anything. It is part of the human condition, so can it really be evil?

While your MO of Fallen Angles theory is novel I really don't think that is what is going on. Schizophrenia isn't going to make someone evil, just sick. It isn't temptation because you can't say no, so I don't think it'd be legal in the "God vs the Devil" chess game that we are. If going crazy, literally chemical imbalance crazy, gets anyone sent to hell I'll be upset because part of the criteria for being considered mentally unwell is not being able to make the correct decisions because of the disease. I don't think God would hold that against people.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that is truly caused by a chemical imbalance.[/quote] This is what psychiatrists categorize it as, but it's a pseudo science and there is a lack of scientific proof to prove it's a "chemical imbalance". If you were to ask a psychiatrist, 'what chemical specifically is imbalanced' they wouldn't be able to tell you and wouldn't have a method of which to find out.

IE: A Thyroid malfunction causes depression, but it can be scientifically proven [blood test] if the thyroid is producing enough of a particular chemical to keep someone from having malfunction symptoms. In the situation of Schizophrenia [my grandmother has this, that's why I'd done great amounts of research with it] there isn't a blood test that can be taken to prove such a "chemical imbalance" that psychiatrists seem to impliment.

Reza

[Aloysius]

I do not intend to say that the person is evil or will do evil; but any disorder in human nature is certainly an evil. human nature is inherently good and anything which disorders it is evil.

the entire problem of the human condition as all religions try to deal with it is the fact that evil exists in the human condition. those 1% are affected by an evil which harms their way of life and affects their free will. evil is, by definition, disorder. I speak of no culpability (I am elevating the plane to talk about culpability on a cosmic philosophical scale; who is to blame for this disorder? merely fallen human nature? or the effect of demonic influence? perhaps both. certainly it is not the individual with the disorder, that's a given.) but of the mere objective fact that this is evil; just like disease and death are evil. they are contrary to full human naure.

diminishing the ability to excercise free will (what psychological disorders do) is not the same as influencing the free will by conditions (which is what other physical disorders do). being unable to make choices because your brain has disorders in it is a lot different than being unable to walk up a flight of chairs because your legs don't work. one is a direct attack on the free will, the other is just a situation which the free will must apply itself to.

If the person is totally cured by the treatment of psychologists, then there would be no need for such minor exorcisms. If it is regulated by the drugs such that they are no longer hearing voices, exorcisms can still be good. Remember I'm coming from the idea that there are two possible benefits; to help the person overcome their delusions if they are merely psychological, and to combat any spiritual realities which may be at work. The latter could still be served while the person's psychological illness is regulated; even the former even when the person no longer has cognitive delusions because of the chemical regulation.

The normal human way of affecting the chemicals of the brain is through human interaction; rituals, being believed by the afflicted, can have the same types of effects as drugs. I do not suggest replacing drugs completely with rituals, but supplementing them. If a person fights his delusions cognitively as if they are demons, believes that there are rituals which are good and are helping to vanquish his delusions, and is helped by therapy and drug regulation, I believe they would have the highest possible level of recovery. If not for spiritual and unprovable reasons, at least for these reasons that human interaction and belief affects the chemicals of the brain.

[Jaime]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1203780' date='Feb 24 2007, 12:06 AM']This is what psychiatrists categorize it as, but it's a pseudo science and there is a lack of scientific proof to prove it's a "chemical imbalance". If you were to ask a psychiatrist, 'what chemical specifically is imbalanced' they wouldn't be able to tell you and wouldn't have a method of which to find out.

IE: A Thyroid malfunction causes depression, but it can be scientifically proven [blood test] if the thyroid is producing enough of a particular chemical to keep someone from having malfunction symptoms. In the situation of Schizophrenia [my grandmother has this, that's why I'd done great amounts of research with it] there isn't a blood test that can be taken to prove such a "chemical imbalance" that psychiatrists seem to impliment.

Reza[/quote]

Yeah he or she would be able to tell you. Schizophrenia in many cases is caused by a sensitivity to the production of dopamine.

[Aloysius]

very interesting results on this poll (which, on my firefox browser, is randomly shifted over to the right by a whole viewscreen worth of pixels)...

it seems a large majority think psychological diseases like skitzophrenia are sometimes caused by demonic influence in some way. what to do about it seems split...

among those who think all skitzophrenics should receive some type of exorcism, the majority think they should all receive some form of minor exorcism. very few think all skitzophrenics should receive full-fledged exorcism.

among those who think some skitzophrenics should receive some type of exorcism, it appears most think some should receive full fledged exorcisms and some should receive minor exorcisms.

i do like the multiple-choice option for polling... very useful.

[carrdero]

I voted that psychological illnesses are real but that no denomic influences are involved. I believe there are no such things as demons.

[Deb]

Here is what the Mayo says about schizophrenia:

It's not known what causes schizophrenia. However, researchers believe that an interaction of genetics and environment may cause schizophrenia. Problems with certain naturally occurring brain chemicals, including the neurotransmitters dopamine and glutamate, also may contribute to schizophrenia. Neuroimaging studies show differences in the brain structure and central nervous system of people with schizophrenia. While researchers aren't fully certain about the significance of these changes, they support evidence that schizophrenia is a brain disease.



Schizophrenia affects about 1 percent of the general population. In people who have close relatives with schizophrenia, the illness is much more common — about 10 percent. In men, schizophrenia symptoms typically start in the teens or 20s. In women, schizophrenia symptoms typically begin in the 20s or early 30s.

Although the precise cause of schizophrenia isn't known, researchers have identified certain factors that seem to increase the risk of developing or triggering schizophrenia, including:
[list]
[*]Having a family history of schizophrenia
[*]Exposure to viruses while in the womb
[*]Malnutrition while in the womb
[*]Stressful life circumstances
[*]Older paternal age
[*]Taking psychoactive drugs during adolescence
[/list]

I do know someone who became schizophrenic after one too many LSD trips. LSD interupts the interaction between nerve cells and seratonin and creates vivid sights, sounds, feelings that are very real but, do not exist. Everything gets mixed up and you can hear color or see sound. Nothing is real.
Schizophrenia seems to be related to that experience and I really can't see that as being the devil in someone. Just a badly wired brain.
That doesn't mean that some people's mental illnesses aren't touched by the devil. If you are depressed, I believe he can whisper in your ear that you should end it. Does that mean everyone depressed needs an exorcism? No. Prayers should and do help.

I had given my priest a list of about 50 books I had but, hadn't read yet and asked him to mark off the top three to five he thought I should read first at this stage of my conversion or to recommend others that are not on there. The first thing he did was completely cross out Fr. Amorth's book and told me that he did not recommend that I read that at all or not for a long time. He said that if I was interested and wanted a fairly true theological example of exorcism, to watch a movie about someone named Rose? I wrote it down somewhere. He said the drama wasn't accurate but the process was. So, I put Amorth away.

[CatherineM]

My husband has schizophrenia as does his mother, and as did his great-grandmother and a cousin. He has had a priest suggest he have an exorcism. He's also had family members suggest he be sterilized. He opted to do neither. He is well controlled by the medication. It has some nasty side affects at times, and doesn't entirely rid him of the voices, but makes them manageable. Some of the voices tell him that he is going to hell. Some are as if he is actually talking to God. He gives his confessor gray hair. I don't think he is possessed. His mother, on the other hand may be. She refuses to be properly medicated. It is such a hard illness to live with that you look for any excuse to discontinue medication. The idea of saying it is possession, and that an exorcism will mean you no longer have to wear the stigma of the disease like a rock around your neck, is very tempting. It's those temptations that have their origin in the devil, not the disease.

[Socrates]

Last summer, I attended a talk by an experienced exorcist, and asked him a question on this topic. The answer, in short, is that mental illness and demonic possession or obsession are not mutually exclusive, and the devil can in fact use an existing mental or emotional illness as a way to gain a foothold.

The devil can possess mentally ill individuals just as much as sane ones.

This is not of course to say that every mentally ill person is possessed, but mental illness does not in itself rule out demonic activity. Only a genuine exorcist can make the final call on this though.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1468913' date='Feb 25 2008, 10:07 PM']Last summer, I attended a talk by an experienced exorcist, and asked him a question on this topic. The answer, in short, is that mental illness and demonic possession or obsession are not mutually exclusive, and the devil can in fact use an existing mental or emotional illness as a way to gain a foothold.

The devil can possess mentally ill individuals just as much as sane ones.

This is not of course to say that every mentally ill person is possessed, but mental illness does not in itself rule out demonic activity. Only a genuine exorcist can make the final call on this though.[/quote]
What genuine exorcist has had authoritative experience with genuine demons?

[Deb]

[quote name='carrdero' date='Feb 26 2008, 09:40 AM' post='1469131']
What genuine exorcist has had authoritative experience with genuine demons?


Hmmm, do you mean besides Our Lord Jesus Christ and his Apostles?