Aloysius Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Hopefully this poll is not too complicated for the masses. Please do not vote for Pat Buchannen. In the second poll question you can select multiple choices; please only choose multiples if you vote for one of the yes'es, and in that case only vote for one or both of the two choices under the yes which you have chosen. I suppose if you have multiple personalities (which is different from skitzophrenia but is still an hilariously relevant joke) you could just vote for all of the options. I have been thinking about this... and I'm starting to wonder how wise we are to totally dismiss any and all possibility of exorcism on the basis of mental illness. Yes, psychologists should work with people who have skitzophrenia and other mental disorders... but is it not possible that demonic influence could be involved even with these illnesses? That the chemical imbalances are physical reflections of spiritual realities? could not an exorcist work with a psychologist in helping a person? just some thoughts I'm having... because you can think back to the exorcisms of history and many psychologists will insist these people just had some psychological illness... yet the exorcism often helped anyway. people even try to say the demoniac Jesus healed was just a crazy man... could he not have had demons which caused imbalances in his psyche and possessed him controlling him in that way? if a psychological problem takes away your ability to excercise free will, what makes that different from what a demon does to a person when he takes away their ability to excercise free will? What do you think? Should psychologists and exorcists work together? Or is the system currently in place; wherein a team of psychological experts helps the exorcist determine if the troubled person should either go through exorcism or psychiatric care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 you know sometimes an exorcism can solve a psychological problem It doesn't always mean that the disorder was caused by demonic activity. Its just enough that the person believes it was caused by demons. That being said, there is a HUGE difference between the possessed and the schizophrenic, (or multiple personalities, etc) so I didn't answer the poll questions. Simply because if someone is diagnosed as being insane, but they are in actuality possessed, they are misdiagnosed. And people get misdiagnosed in therapy all the time (not just possession). The sad thing is that the world of psychology (for the most part) doesn't recognize evil in our world, just illness. I went to a Catholic university for my masters in Psychology and I would get openly mocked by my professors for bringing up the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
track2004 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 If someone is schizophrenics then they should be treated by psychologists. Period. It is a severe mental problem and does not always entail hearing voices, but even if it does, they should be treated by a psycholoist. I had a friend who was not schizophrenic but was in a medical study for their medicine, anyway so he was on these drugs and one night he saw the devil at the end of his bed. This kid is completely normal except for these drugs, but he saw the devil. Things in the brain misfire and malfunction and we have stuff that can fix it or control it so people can lead normal lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 [quote name='track2004' post='1202759' date='Feb 22 2007, 07:06 PM']If someone is schizophrenics then they should be treated by psychologists. Period. It is a severe mental problem and does not always entail hearing voices, but even if it does, they should be treated by a psycholoist. I had a friend who was not schizophrenic but was in a medical study for their medicine, anyway so he was on these drugs and one night he saw the devil at the end of his bed. This kid is completely normal except for these drugs, but he saw the devil. Things in the brain misfire and malfunction and we have stuff that can fix it or control it so people can lead normal lives.[/quote] How do you know the devil didn't come to visit him? That would have been a perfect time. Isn't it the devils best trick to convince us he doesn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 22, 2007 Author Share Posted February 22, 2007 I'm proposing the possibility that they be treated by both psychologists and exorcists. would there be harm to that if there was no demonic influence? it would just include prayers and rituals which may help the person even if only because they begin to believe they're getting better; and then coupled with therapy and such they would be getting better. I understand that there is a difference between the possessed and the skitzophrenic; but can something be both a real substantial demonic torment or possession AND a real substantial chemical imbalance of the brain like skitzophrenia? just because skitzohrenia is different than most possessions doesn't mean it couldn't have some demonic cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 that's an interesting hypothesis. My gut reaction is no that one cannot be simultaneously schizophrenic and possessed. But that's more theological than psychological. I don't think the devil can tempt us if we are not in control of our free will. But that's just an opinion. I'm mulling it over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1202777' date='Feb 22 2007, 06:50 PM']that's an interesting hypothesis. My gut reaction is no that one cannot be simultaneously schizophrenic and possessed. But that's more theological than psychological. I don't think the devil can tempt us if we are not in control of our free will. But that's just an opinion. I'm mulling it over[/quote] I read something about an infant (not really in control of free will) that was possessed a while back. Of course, I cannot verify the authenticity of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Very interesting question, Aloysius. I think that in any illness prayers for a person can help. Exorcism is the prayer of the Church and I do not see why some simple prayers for the person would be harmful.. of course, it would depend a lot upon the person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 possession in and of itself takes away the excercise of free will. so do psychological illnesses. but I guess what you're saying is that we must do something with our free will which leads us to get possessed. skitzophrenia and other mental illnesses at least usually are not caused by an excercise of our free will, but by a combination of our genetics and aspects in our environment beyond our control. sometimes it can come about based upon choices that affect the environment which forms us, of course. but there is possession and then there is torment. demons can torment us without our free will leading to it. demons tormented Padre Pio; he made no excercise of his free will which caused that torment. so could (at least some) cases of skitzophrenia be demonic torment? do not we do some level of exorcism prayers against torments of devils? I'm also not entirely sure one must excercise their free will for partial possessions. full possessions must be based upon a full excercise of free will; but can there be a partial possession brought about by evils in the world and in your environment which open you to such things? like how most drug addictions are caused by an original excercise of the free will; but a baby can be born with a level of addiction to drugs. they don't have the type of full addiction that the adult addict has because the adult addict has knowledge of what he must do to fulfill the addiction... the adult has a fuller level of addiction but the baby has the effects of it. in the same way, an environment couldl cause a type of possession on a person that they did not excercise their will to deserve. only by excercising your will towards something can you become fully possessed; but being involuntarily in an environment can cause the effects of a possession... now that I think about it I might just be describing a type of torment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Al, have you read about the three types of demonic activity of that sort? There is possession, obsession, and oppression. The book, "An Interview with an Exorcist" gives a good outline of the differences and the importance of involving the medical community. I do not have the book, and I cannot quote it exactly, but when it comes to oppresion and obsession one is from inside (like mental/spiritual torment) and the other is external (physical manifestations/threats). BTW,... here is a rather interesting website on [url="http://www.catholicwarfare.com/"][b]Catholic Spiritual Warfare.[/b][/url] It has some quotes from JPII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 hmm.. no I have not read of them.. I assume torment is still different those types. or at least it is a lesser degree of opression? how do these three types weigh in on whether we need excercise our free will to be affected by them? I like the idea of the involvement of the medical community... but I'm not sure I agree that just because one has a mental illness they should not be the subject of some type of exorcisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1202926' date='Feb 22 2007, 11:29 PM']hmm.. no I have not read of them.. I assume torment is still different those types. or at least it is a lesser degree of opression? how do these three types weigh in on whether we need excercise our free will to be affected by them? I like the idea of the involvement of the medical community... but I'm not sure I agree that just because one has a mental illness they should not be the subject of some type of exorcisms.[/quote] Torment different type of oppression? Most likely... but the terms Fr Amorth uses are pretty specific. I wish i had my books! I lent them out and they shall never return... I hate letting people borrow my books! Well a number of saints are said to have suffered from oppression and obsession. There are even some who were thought to have been possessed at some point (cannot remember who)... St Therese was thought to fall into one of these categories when she was a child and had her mysterious illness... I do not see why exorcism would not help mental illness... but I think for some people, if they KNEW it was a prayer of exorcism it might exasterbate some of their symptoms, esp if they have an unhealthy fixation on the demonic. "Interview with an Exorcist" == I recommend more than Amorth's books... or at least as a good starting point. See if you can get your library to buy it. I got mine too. Edited February 23, 2007 by philosobrat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
track2004 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Okay so I just want to say all the talk of schizophrenia being caused by deamons is never going to fly in a scientific field because it cannot be falsified. So no one takes it seriously and they never will. Sorry but no real scientist would accept that theory, even if exorcism works sometimes. Lots of therapy works not because it is good therapy, but because the patient wants it to. This can even happen for things that look like types of schizophrenia, but schizophrenia is a very serious disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 23, 2007 Author Share Posted February 23, 2007 I have no interest in convincing science that skitzophrenia is caused by demons any more than I have any interest in convincing science of the existence of the soul. It is not science's domain to determine whether there is a soul or whether there is a demonic influence on skitzophrenia or not; just like it is not science's domain to determine whether there is a God. Science describes the physical world and immediate causation; it cannot explain philosophic ultimate causation. there are the chemical imbalances caused by genes and environment; but why would there be a humanity with faulty genes? and why would there be dangerous environments in human societies? they could come up with immediate causes for those on a physical level; but the philosophic "why"? can never be answered by physical sciences... precisely because they are [i]physical[/i] sciences. yes, skitzophrenia is a very serious disease and it should be dealt with by psychologists. the question I would pose is: what is the harm in alsos dealing with it by rites of exorcism? even if they only work because they are wanted to work, that would still be a good. and they might possibly work good on supernatural substantial levels which needn't be proven by physical sciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Typically I'd say that an "exorcism" might be a bit extreme but simple "prayer" should be encouraged. In regards to psychiatry, that's a very sensetive issue. I'm more into natural methods to treating someone with a mental disorder. Reza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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