The Holy Spirit And Common Sense

[Dave]

There is the question of the Holy Spirit:

"How many times have you heard non-Catholics say, "The Holy Spirit told me"?

They all seem to be saying it, and yet, how can this be? The Holy Spirit is GOD, and GOD is truth, and neither GOD nor truth ever change. There are major differences between denominations, not just minor ones as some would like us to believe. All of the following denominations teach from the same Bible. How then, can the Holy Spirit tell one denomination one thing and then tell another just the opposite?

For example:

Seventh Day Adventists insist that scripture says we must worship on Saturday. Lutherans with an equal insistence, teach that scripture says we must worship on Sunday.

Wouldn't the Holy Spirit have to be teaching each an opposing viewpoint here? How could He?

Methodists say that scripture says it is alright to ordain women. Baptists say it is not Biblical.

Presbyterians teach "predestination" and they baptize infants. Baptists reject both.

Lutherans say that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. Baptists say it is only a symbol.

Which one(s) of these, if any, are receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit for these important doctrinal differences? Again I repeat, is the Holy Spirit teaching each an opposing viewpoint?

Is GOD the author of confusion? Isn't it the opinions of men who are causing the confusion?

They all cannot be right can they? What does your common sense tell you?

Doesn't anyone realize that it could be any one of three spirits which is actually doing the speaking?

They are:

1. The Holy Spirit.

2. The human spirit within each one of us.

3. An evil, or a demonic spirit.

Because of the myriads of doctrinal conflicts in the tens of thousands of present day splits in the Body of Christ, isn't it obvious that we can eliminate choice #1 for all save one, the one and only Church which Jesus Christ founded, and thus would have to have the fullness of truth?

"A Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member." Saint Augustine of Hippo 354-430

Holy Scripture warns us to test all spirits. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD; 'because many false prophets' have gone forth into the world."

1 John 4:1

Just how many, are the "many false prophets"?

That question is easy, for all save one, teach a "variance" of the truth, or not the full truth.

This can be the only a logical conclusion, since if any taught all truth they would be united with the only Church which Jesus Christ founded.

All it takes to find the truth is a little common sense, but then, where is common sense today?

[Truth]

There is the question of the Holy Spirit:

"How many times have you heard non-Catholics say, "The Holy Spirit told me"?

They all seem to be saying it, and yet, how can this be? The Holy Spirit is GOD, and GOD is truth, and neither GOD nor truth ever change. There are major differences between denominations, not just minor ones as some would like us to believe. All of the following denominations teach from the same Bible. How then, can the Holy Spirit tell one denomination one thing and then tell another just the opposite?

For example:

Seventh Day Adventists insist that scripture says we must worship on Saturday. Lutherans with an equal insistence, teach that scripture says we must worship on Sunday.

Wouldn't the Holy Spirit have to be teaching each an opposing viewpoint here? How could He?

Methodists say that scripture says it is alright to ordain women. Baptists say it is not Biblical.

Presbyterians teach "predestination" and they baptize infants. Baptists reject both.

Lutherans say that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. Baptists say it is only a symbol.

Which one(s) of these, if any, are receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit for these important doctrinal differences? Again I repeat, is the Holy Spirit teaching each an opposing viewpoint?

Is GOD the author of confusion? Isn't it the opinions of men who are causing the confusion?

They all cannot be right can they? What does your common sense tell you?

Doesn't anyone realize that it could be any one of three spirits which is actually doing the speaking?

They are:

1. The Holy Spirit.

2. The human spirit within each one of us.

3. An evil, or a demonic spirit.

Because of the myriads of doctrinal conflicts in the tens of thousands of present day splits in the Body of Christ, isn't it obvious that we can eliminate choice #1 for all save one, the one and only Church which Jesus Christ founded, and thus would have to have the fullness of truth?

"A Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member." Saint Augustine of Hippo 354-430

Holy Scripture warns us to test all spirits. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD; 'because many false prophets' have gone forth into the world."

1 John 4:1

Just how many, are the "many false prophets"?

That question is easy, for all save one, teach a "variance" of the truth, or not the full truth.

This can be the only a logical conclusion, since if any taught all truth they would be united with the only Church which Jesus Christ founded.

All it takes to find the truth is a little common sense, but then, where is common sense today?

Seventh Day Adventists insist that scripture says we must worship on Saturday.

First let me say I'm not a Seventh Day Adventists. But I would like for one of my learned Catholic to show me in scripture that they are not right.

Secondly, anyone opinion held in opposition to the established or authorized doctrine of a church or sect or denomination is heresy. So that would be you also.

Edited January 25, 2004 by Truth

[Anna]

Good point Dave. In most instances, common sense says that the person making the claim that the Holy Spirit said to do such and such is usually a person telling himself just what he wants to hear. Other times, though, it is his conscience nagging him to do what is right. And then, there are those times of Supreme Grace, when the Holy Spirit actually does move a person. But it should be fairly easy to disguish between these.

Pax Christi. <><

[phatcatholic]

Seventh Day Adventists insist that scripture says we must worship on Saturday.

First let me say I'm not a Seventh Day Adventists. But I would like for one of my learned Catholic to show me in scripture that they are not right.

larry,

are you talking about "right" regarding our celebration of mass on Sunday? if so, i offer the following:

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this texts shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

Also, to prove that Sunday Sabbath is what the earliest Christians practiced:

Didache,14(A.D. 70),in ACW,VI:23

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks, but first confess your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure."

Ignatius,To the Magnesians,9:1(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:62

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master"

Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:16(A.D. 202),in ANF,II:512

"The seventh day, therefore, is proclaimed a rest--abstraction from ills--preparing for the Primal Day,[ie. The Lord's Day] our true rest; which, in truth, is the first creation of light, in which all things are viewed and possessed. From this day the first wisdom and knowledge illuminate us. For the light of truth--a light true, casting no shadow, is the Spirit of God indivisibly divided to all, who are sanctified by faith, holding the place of a luminary, in order to the knowledge of real existences. By following Him, therefore, through our whole life, we become impossible; and this is to rest."

Tertullian,An answer to the Jews,2(A.D. 203),in ANF,III:153

"In fine, let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of the threat of death, teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practised circumcision, and were thus rendered "friends of God." For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised--yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath--God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and in-observant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God."

Teaching of the Apostles,2(A.D. 225),in ANF,VIII:668

"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation: because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven."

Origen,Commentary on John,2:27(A.D. 229),in ANF,X:342

"Hence it is not possible that the rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh of our God; on the contrary, it is our Saviour who, after the pattern of His own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of His death, and hence also of His resurrection."

Victorinus,On the Creation of the World(A.D. 300),in ANF,VII:341-2

"On the seventh day He rested from all His works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord's day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews, which Christ Himself, the Lord of the Sabbath, says by His prophets that 'His soul hateth;' which Sabbath He in His body abolished"

Eusebius,Church History,1:4,8(A.D. 312),in NPNF2,I:87

"They did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we."

Athanasius,Epistle 9:11(A.D. 335),in NPNF2,VII:527

"Also that day which is holy and blessed in everything, which possesses the name of Christ, namely the Lord's day, having risen upon us on the fourth of Pharmuthi (Mar. 30), let us afterwards keep the holy feast of Pentecost."

Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,4:37(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:

"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans, or into Judaism: for Jesus Christ henceforth hath ransomed thee. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths, and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean."

Council of Laodicea,Canon 29(A.D. 360),in NPNF2,XIV:149

"Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

Jerome,Dialogue against the Luciferians,8(A.D. 382),in NPNF2,VI:324

"For many other observances of the Churches, which are due to tradition, have acquired the authority of the written law, as for instance the practice of dipping the head three times in the layer, and then, after leaving the water, of tasting mingled milk and honey in representation of infancy; and, again, the practices of standing up in worship on the Lord's day, and ceasing from fasting every Pentecost; and there are many other unwritten practices which have won their place through reason and custom. So you see we follow the practice of the Church, although it may be clear that a person was baptized before the Spirit was invoked."

John Chrysostom,Acts of the Apostles,Homily 18(A.D. 388),in NPNF1,XI:118

"Then as one whom they must respect, there will be the presbyter among them and this will contribute to the security of the estate. There will be constant prayers there through thee hymns and Communions through thee; the Oblation on each Lord's Day."

Apostolic Constitutions,2,7:59(A.D. 400),in ANF,VII:423

"And on the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent Him to us, and condescended to let Him suffer, and raised Him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day to hear the saving word concerning the resurrection, on which we pray thrice standing in memory of Him who arose in three days, in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the Gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food?"

Augustine,Spirit and the Letter,23:14(A.D. 412),in NPNF1,V:93

"Well, now, I should like to be told what there is in these ten commandments, except the observance of the Sabbath, which ought not to be kept by a Christian,--whether it prohibit the making and worshipping of idols and of any other gods than the one true God, or the taking of God's name in vain; or prescribe honour to parents; or give warning against fornication, murder, theft, false witness, adultery, or coveting other men's property? Which of these commandments would any one say that the Christian ought not to keep? Is it possible to contend that it is not the law which was written on those two tables that the apostle describes as 'the letter that killeth,' but the law of circumcision and the other sacred rites which are now abolished? But then how can we think so, when in the law occurs this precept, 'Thou shall not covet,' by which very commandment, notwithstanding its being holy, just, and good, 'sin,' says the apostle, 'deceived me, and by it slew me?' What else can this be than 'the letter' that 'killeth'? "

Sozomon,Ecclesiastical History,1:8(A.D. 443),in NPNF2,II:245

"He[Constantine] also enjoined the observance of the day termed the Lord's day, which the Jews call the first day of the week, and which the pagans dedicate to the sun, as likewise the day before the seventh, and commanded that no judicial or other business should be transacted on those days, but that God should be served with prayers and supplications. He honored the Lord's day, because on it Christ arose from the dead, and the day above mentioned, because on it he was crucified."

Pope Gregory the Great[regn. A.D. 590-604],To the Roman Citizens,Epistle 13:1(A.D. 597),in NPNF2,XIII:92

"It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord's day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the per-tidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed. For this which is said by the prophet, 'Ye shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath day', could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of Almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For, if any one says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered: he must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the Apostle Paul saying in opposition to him, 'If ye be circumcised, Christ profiteth you nothing'."

this should hopefully prove that Sunday Sabbath is both biblical and consistent w/ early Christian practice. how do you reconcile your beliefs on the Sabbath w/ this wealth of information i have provided?

the burden of proof is on you.

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for truth,

phatcatholic

[Anna]

PhatCatholic: in one word,

amesome!

[God Conquers]

You just compiled your own section for the apologetics board!

[Circle_Master]

There is the question of the Holy Spirit:

"How many times have you heard non-Catholics say, "The Holy Spirit told me"?

They all seem to be saying it, and yet, how can this be? The Holy Spirit is GOD, and GOD is truth, and neither GOD nor truth ever change. There are major differences between denominations, not just minor ones as some would like us to believe. All of the following denominations teach from the same Bible. How then, can the Holy Spirit tell one denomination one thing and then tell another just the opposite?

For example:

Seventh Day Adventists insist that scripture says we must worship on Saturday. Lutherans with an equal insistence, teach that scripture says we must worship on Sunday.

Wouldn't the Holy Spirit have to be teaching each an opposing viewpoint here? How could He?

Methodists say that scripture says it is alright to ordain women. Baptists say it is not Biblical.

Presbyterians teach "predestination" and they baptize infants. Baptists reject both.

Lutherans say that Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. Baptists say it is only a symbol.

Which one(s) of these, if any, are receiving guidance from the Holy Spirit for these important doctrinal differences? Again I repeat, is the Holy Spirit teaching each an opposing viewpoint?

Is GOD the author of confusion? Isn't it the opinions of men who are causing the confusion?

They all cannot be right can they? What does your common sense tell you?

Doesn't anyone realize that it could be any one of three spirits which is actually doing the speaking?

They are:

1. The Holy Spirit.

2. The human spirit within each one of us.

3. An evil, or a demonic spirit.

Because of the myriads of doctrinal conflicts in the tens of thousands of present day splits in the Body of Christ, isn't it obvious that we can eliminate choice #1 for all save one, the one and only Church which Jesus Christ founded, and thus would have to have the fullness of truth?

"A Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member." Saint Augustine of Hippo 354-430

Holy Scripture warns us to test all spirits. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD; 'because many false prophets' have gone forth into the world."

1 John 4:1

Just how many, are the "many false prophets"?

That question is easy, for all save one, teach a "variance" of the truth, or not the full truth.

This can be the only a logical conclusion, since if any taught all truth they would be united with the only Church which Jesus Christ founded.

All it takes to find the truth is a little common sense, but then, where is common sense today?

I disagree. I never say 'The Holy Spirit told me'. We are too indoctrinated by our culture, and our self-centerredness. It takes a lifetime of searching to get anywhere, and I am not so nieve to believe I know the perfect truth.

"A Christian man is Catholic while he lives in the body; cut off, he is made a heretic; the Spirit does not follow an amputated member." Saint Augustine of Hippo 354-430

Common sense argument : I know the Holy Spirit is at work within me. I have seen His work and who I am today is impossible without Him. I know other Godly men who have had radical transformations by the power of God. Common sense tells me they have the Holy Spirit convicting them and changing them - thus the catholic Augustine speaks of (universal church member) indeed is all who have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your passage in 1 John 4:1 is great! I love that verse, and how else are we supposed to test except by Scripture?? Take Clement's words for example on heretics "And if those also who follow heresies venture to avail themselves of the prophetic Scriptures; in the first place they will not make use of all the Scriptures, and then they will not quote them entire, nor as the body and texture of prophecy prescribe. But, selecting ambiguous expressions, they wrest them to their own opinions, gathering a few expressions here and there; not looking to the sense, but making use of the mere words." All Scripture, all wonderful Scripture. In psalm 1 David also speaks of the man who meditates on Scripture daily as one who is firmly planted. The same man (David) also writes about how glorious God is because of His revelation in the world around, and His revelation in Scripture only. amesome stuff. To continue with 1 John 4:1 also continues and says how we should even test! "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already." Just like I said ! Confessing that Jesus is Lord (deity from God).

[phatcatholic]

You just compiled your own section for the apologetics board!

yet, somehow i am afraid that it is not enough.............. :(

[Dave]

Common sense argument : I know the Holy Spirit is at work within me. I have seen His work and who I am today is impossible without Him. I know other Godly men who have had radical transformations by the power of God. Common sense tells me they have the Holy Spirit convicting them and changing them - thus the catholic Augustine speaks of (universal church member) indeed is all who have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

If the Holy Spirit is at work within you, then why not open yourself up fully to Him, which would include everything -- even your beliefs?

[Circle_Master]

If the Holy Spirit is at work within you, then why not open yourself up fully to Him, which would include everything -- even your beliefs?

I do dave. what must I do to get that through to you. I seek Him daily and in every way. I have considered the Catholic Church about 700 times now and everytime I run into many many problems. I consider and reconsider everything searching for the truth. "seek and ye shall find"

[Dave]

I do dave. what must I do to get that through to you. I seek Him daily and in every way. I have considered the Catholic Church about 700 times now and everytime I run into many many problems. I consider and reconsider everything searching for the truth. "seek and ye shall find"

If you seek the Holy Spirit and consider the Catholic Church, then why do you keep posting stuff that essentially accuses the Catholic Church of being wrong? Seems to me you're acting on your biases rather than the Holy Spirit.

[Circle_Master]

If you seek the Holy Spirit and consider the Catholic Church, then why do you keep posting stuff that essentially accuses the Catholic Church of being wrong? Seems to me you're acting on your biases rather than the Holy Spirit.

Because Scripture seems cleary to teach different than the Catholic Church believes. I thought that would be obvious from my writings here. I would suggest you relax a little bit and stop typing like I am the antiChrist or something. We are here for debate, I am not telling anyone here they are going to hell, I deal with teachings only and how they interact with Scripture.

[Dave]

Because Scripture seems cleary to teach different than the Catholic Church believes. I thought that would be obvious from my writings here. I would suggest you relax a little bit and stop typing like I am the antiChrist or something. We are here for debate, I am not telling anyone here they are going to hell, I deal with teachings only and how they interact with Scripture.

But Scripture and the teachings of the Catholic Church are NOT at odds. We've made this clear for you over and over again if you'd only be open to what we have to say and not rely on your own ideas of what Scripture means.

And where have I acted like you're the Antichrist? Is correcting your errors supposed to make you appear to be the Antichrist?

[Circle_Master]

But Scripture and the teachings of the Catholic Church are NOT at odds. We've made this clear for you over and over again if you'd only be open to what we have to say and not rely on your own ideas of what Scripture means.

stop with your superior attitude and realize that I have looked at the Catholic Church position and I see the plain meaning of Scripture as totally different. You have done no such thing, and you have no idea what discussions I've had on here - stop acting like you know me inside and out. You already said I was an arrogant liar on another thread and upon confrontation said the truth hurts. Again - done posting replies to you. I am really pushing for a 'ignore all posts from such and such user' option.

[Dave]

stop with your superior attitude and realize that I have looked at the Catholic Church position and I see the plain meaning of Scripture as totally different. You have done no such thing, and you have no idea what discussions I've had on here - stop acting like you know me inside and out. You already said I was an arrogant liar on another thread and upon confrontation said the truth hurts. Again - done posting replies to you. I am really pushing for a 'ignore all posts from such and such user' option.

See my newest post in that thread you were referring to just now.