Obedience And Common Sense

[Dave]

Then there is the question of obedience:

1. "Obey your superiors and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls; so that they may do this with joy, and not with grief, for that would not be expedient for you." Hebrews 13:17

So many non-Catholics claim to follow the teaching of Holy Scripture. I would ask if the founders of the Reformation, Luther, Calvin, Munser, and the others, obeyed this verse? If they were not obedient, how then could their followers be obedient?

2. There are many verses which warn against forsaking GOD given authority regarding His Assembly (O.T.) or Church (N.T.) which He bestowed upon prophets such as Moses (Exodus 3-40), and on the Apostles (John 20:21-23), and to their successors (Hebrews 13:7-8,17).

Read of the rebellion of Korah against the GOD given authority of Moses in Numbers 16, and pay special attention to what happened to Korah, and to his followers in Numbers 16:31-35.

All it takes to find the truth is a little common sense, but then, where is common sense today?

[Truth]

Then there is the question of obedience:

1. "Obey your superiors and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls; so that they may do this with joy, and not with grief, for that would not be expedient for you." Hebrews 13:17

So many non-Catholics claim to follow the teaching of Holy Scripture. I would ask if the founders of the Reformation, Luther, Calvin, Munser, and the others, obeyed this verse? If they were not obedient, how then could their followers be obedient?

2. There are many verses which warn against forsaking GOD given authority regarding His Assembly (O.T.) or Church (N.T.) which He bestowed upon prophets such as Moses (Exodus 3-40), and on the Apostles (John 20:21-23), and to their successors (Hebrews 13:7-8,17).

Read of the rebellion of Korah against the GOD given authority of Moses in Numbers 16, and pay special attention to what happened to Korah, and to his followers in Numbers 16:31-35.

All it takes to find the truth is a little common sense, but then, where is common sense today?

1. "Obey your superiors and be subject to them, for they keep watch as having to render an account of your souls; so that they may do this with joy, and not with grief, for that would not be expedient for you." Hebrews 13:17

1A) The is a letter to a church also. I was talking to one of the seven, written by Paul own hand. You are using this to make a case for the church I take it. The church was lead by baptized men in the will of God.

17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

But as always you give only 99% of the truth. If you going to use scripture use it in context to get the fullness of it. In this case go back and read Heb 13:7-14 first and see what is said first.

Same problems Jews (OT) and Catholic (NT) Blind Leading the Blind, your reward is here.

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Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV

Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved

[Dave]

1A) The is a letter to a church also. I was talking to one of the seven, written by Paul own hand. You are using this to make a case for the church I take it. The church was lead by baptized men in the will of God.

17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Again, you're forgetting that these churches were part of the one true Church that is Catholicism, all with the same beliefs and doctrines.

But as always you give only 99% of the truth. If you going to use scripture use it in context to get the fullness of it. In this case go back and read Heb 13:7-14 first and see what is said first.

Same problems Jews (OT) and Catholic (NT)  Blind Leading the Blind, your reward is here.

How, pray tell, have I taken scripture out of context? Prove it to me.

[Anna]

Dave,

You know how to read.

You're a journalist! You know how to take things in proper context.

Someone around here just won't accept anything--even Scripture itself--which points out that the Church founded by Jesus is the Catholic Church!

Common sense is all that is needed to see that it is.

Great posting, btw.

Pax Christi. <><

[Circle_Master]

funny, you seem to imply every protestant ignores Scripture and just follows his own whim.

[Anna]

Correction: Many protestants interpret Scripture according to their own whims.

If you disagree with one denom's interpretation, you can join the other denom up the street that more closely agrees with your interpretation!

Not so with the Catholic Church.

It teaches the same, universally. Here, across town, across the country, and across the ocean. Heck, across the centuries!

Solid.

Pax Christi. <><

[Bruce S]

Correction: Many protestants interpret Scripture according to their own whims.

If you disagree with one denom's interpretation, you can join the other denom up the street that more closely agrees with your interpretation!

Not so with the Catholic Church.

It teaches the same, universally. Here, across town, across the country, and across the ocean. Heck, across the centuries!

Hogwash.

Just about ALL, good Protestants look to scripture, the BASIC tenents are not all that hard to understand, it was written in common language, and if one is diligent, in a year one can plow through the entire book, and a few bible study classes will allow it to clearly make sense to any person of average intelligence.

All of the major Protestant denominations agree on 90% of the basics, they fractured more over details, and in worship styles ... and this is actually beneficial, for it allows IMPROVEMENT ... examples being Pentecostal tounges, worship music, and allows for LAITY to exercise some corrective power over the leadership. If a denomination strays, people LEAVE, the resultant loss of money, forces doctrinal purity actually.

The massive sexual problems are inconceivable in Protestantism. If we have a preacher that gets into trouble, generally he is fired, if not, people leave. You are not allowed that power, you have to stay and take it. Sad really.

Frankly, scripture is MUCH easier to read, follow, and understand than the Encyclopia's that the Catholic Church churns out, they are more like reading IRS regulations than religous teachings.

And furthermore...

Catholics in Mexico are completely different than here, Catholics in Brazil are BARELY Christian, and we can go around the world showing that in PRACTICE there is almost as much divergence in Catholic PRACTICE within the Catholic Church as in major Protestant denominations.

The "Unified Catholic Church" exists only in the minds of posters here.

Edited January 25, 2004 by Bruce S

[cmotherofpirl]

You hit on a very important point whether you know it or not Bruce. If the protestant demoniation doesn't like what it hears it will fire the minister, start a new group, or cut off the money. So therefore a preacher better preach what the congregation wants to hear, or he will be sorry. But the Church is not called to conform the truth tohe hearers, we are called to conform to the truth the Church teaches.

So once the people decided they wanted birth control, the protestant churches changed their stance on it. Same with divorce and abortion, things that were unthinkable 100 years ago.

[Bruce S]

You hit on a very important point whether you know it or not Bruce. If the protestant demoniation doesn't like what it hears it will fire the minister, start a new group, or cut off the money. So therefore a preacher better preach what the congregation wants to hear, or he will be sorry. But the Church is not called to conform the truth tohe hearers, we are called to conform to the truth the Church teaches.

Yep. We agree. Strangely. It is the laity, as a TOTAL BODY that will be the corrective force for any individual denomination.

If the LEADERSHIP ... yeah, those guys, go astray. We can leave. Keeps the leaders from getting out of control

Like the middle ages and Catholic Church, the laity left, it FORCED reform onto the Catholic Church.

The process worked THEN, and still works now.

[Circle_Master]

You hit on a very important point whether you know it or not Bruce. If the protestant demoniation doesn't like what it hears it will fire the minister, start a new group, or cut off the money. So therefore a preacher better preach what the congregation wants to hear, or he will be sorry. But the Church is not called to conform the truth tohe hearers, we are called to conform to the truth the Church teaches.

Most protestant denominations condemn pragmatism anna. Only a few such as the 'prosperity gospel' or whatever it is called does that. Some of the mega churches as well.

[cmotherofpirl]

THe problem Bruce is God's truth is not decided by majority rule. WE are to conform to God, not God to us.

I have been reading about those mega church circlemaster - all sweetness and light and lets party.

Here is a really interesting article on them I read today.

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtm...24/wchuch24.xml

its a long link I hope it works.

[Bruce S]

Mother:

No one defends ANY denomination, yours or others, with AUTHORITY, we really sort of enjoy our denominations all working and diverging.

In an odd sense, it is the LACK of uniformity and the commensurate squabbles and power plays, that keeps all men closer to being on track.

If one group ... like the Catholic Church ... gets too big for it's collective britches, like in the middle ages, 1/2 the membership bolts.

Ah...

Think on that for a second. Where WOULD THE Catholic Church BE TODAY, without Luther and Calvin to put the speed brakes on the out of control secularity and materialism?