Are All Christians Saved?

[kenrockthefirst]

I'm currently reading the US Catholic Catechism for Adults, which seems to essentially be an interpretative gloss of the CCC. Anyway, if I understand correctly, it says that a) baptism is necessary for salvation, and b) all Christians baptized using a Trinitarian formula are truly baptized.

Here's my question: is baptism [i]sufficient[/i] for salvation (presuming the legitimate intent of the baptized) and, if so, are all Christians saved?

[Groo the Wanderer]

Maybe this helps: all of mankind is redeemed, but not all will accept salvation...

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1201627' date='Feb 21 2007, 11:05 AM']Maybe this helps: all of mankind is redeemed, but not all will accept salvation...[/quote]

OK, so that opens a gigantic can of worms. Everyone is saved, with the following caveats:

1. If a person has never heard of Jesus but lives according to what natural law and human reason reveal about God, that person is saved.

2. If a person has heard of Jesus but doesn't knowingly reject him, and lives as in point 1 and in accordance with his own religion [i]wherever that religion comports with what God wants[/i], that person is saved.

3. All Christians are saved.

I believe that there is a doctrine, [i]extra ecclesiam nulla salus[/i], "outside the church there is no salvation." Is that dogma? How does that square with the above?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1201606' date='Feb 21 2007, 10:11 AM']I'm currently reading the US Catholic Catechism for Adults, which seems to essentially be an interpretative gloss of the CCC. Anyway, if I understand correctly, it says that a) baptism is necessary for salvation, and b) all Christians baptized using a Trinitarian formula are truly baptized.

Here's my question: is baptism [i]sufficient[/i] for salvation (presuming the legitimate intent of the baptized) and, if so, are all Christians saved?[/quote]
Define "saved" in your terms.
All christians are justified by baptism, but that is not "saved" for we work out our salvation in "fear and trembling",
or as HSM says:
I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and
I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).

Baptism is the beginning of our sanctification, which if we persevere, ends with our salvation.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1201700' date='Feb 21 2007, 02:34 PM']Define "saved" in your terms.
All christians are justified by baptism, but that is not "saved" for we work out our salvation in "fear and trembling",
or as HSM says:
I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and
I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).

Baptism is the beginning of our sanctification, which if we persevere, ends with our salvation.[/quote]

So, going back to my original question, apart from the question of baptism, are all Christians saved?

[Moneybags]

Are all saved? Not all all. I'm going to quote from things I posted on my blog. The first is from a post called "Are all Catholics Saved":

[quote]"Many Catholics will be lost, because they are only nominal, not practical, Catholics, and because they reject some doctrines of the Catholic Church, especially such as oppose their inclinations and passions. Remember, he who rejects even one doctrine proposed to our Faith by the Church will certainly be lost (James 2:10), even though he should lead a good life." (From THE PULPIT ORATOR, Volume VI.)

Our Lord said, "He who believes shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)~ But God said many other things as well:

"If you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15); and "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19:17).

"He that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die" (Lev. 24:16).

"Keep you my Sabbath: for it is holy unto you. He that shall profane it, shall be put to death. Everyone that shall do any work on this day shall die" (Exodus 3l:1-15).

"Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither idolaters, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

"A thief is better than a man that is always lying: but both of them shall inherit destruction" (Ecclus. 20:27).

"Neither fornicators nor adulterers . . . shall possess the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9). "You have heard that it was said to the Ancients, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' But I say to you that anyone who so much as looks with lust at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matt. 5:27-28). "Keep thyself chaste" (1 Tim. 5:22). "Blessed are the clean of heart for they shall see God" (Matt. 5:8).

"There is not a more wicked thing than to love money, for such a one setteth even his own soul at stake."(Ecclus. 10:10).

"If anyone lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination. Let them be put to death" (Lev. 20:13).

"Hear me, and I will show thee who they are, over whom the devil can prevail. For they who in such manner receive matrimony, as to shut out God from themselves, and from their mind, and to give themselves to their lust, as the horse and mule, which have not understanding, over them the devil has power" (Book of Tobias, 6:1&22).

And Christ's Mystical Body on earth, His Church ("He who hears you, hears Me" - Luke 10:16), says:

"Each act of marriage must be left open to conception" (Pope Pius Xl's Encyclical "Casti Connubi", December 31, 1930).

"If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to observe, let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canon 18 on Justification).

"If anyone says that a man who is justified and however perfect is not bound to observe the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe, as though the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life without the condition of obeying the commandments, let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canon 20 on Justification).

Therefore, although it is true that Catholics alone profess the true faith "without which," as St. Paul assures us, "it is impossible to please God" (Heb. 11:6); nevertheless, as St. James concludes: "Faith, without good works, is dead" (James 1:22:27).

"Sometimes people say 'It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.' That is not true. That would mean at bottom that one could be saved without the true Faith. No, a bad Catholic remains a child of the family - although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has the right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant is, for he is a member of the household, whereas the Protestant is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!" (St. Peter Julian Eymard, 1811-1868).[/quote]Now from "Can non-Catholics be saved":

[quote]"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)[/quote]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1201749' date='Feb 21 2007, 04:06 PM']Are all saved? Not all all. I'm going to quote from things I posted on my blog. The first is from a post called "Are all Catholics Saved":

Now from "Can non-Catholics be saved":[/quote]

I don't understand, then, why the Catholic Church recognizes as valid the baptism of Christians from other traditions. What that seems to mean is that, hey, you're a Christian, i.e. a follower of Christ, but you can't be saved because you're not in communion with the Catholic Church. Didn't Jesus say, "those who aren't against us are for us?" How can one be a follower of Christ (granted, one must be a "legitimate" follower of Christ, a "practical" Christian, in your terms, in order to be deemed a Christian) and yet not be saved? Are they "against" Jesus because they're not Catholics, even though they're Christians?

[N/A Gone]

That Question is far too loaded. Baptism is a portion, and is a needed thing, but it does not end after that. In regards to protestant soteriology it needs to be looked on an indvidual bases.

To quote our holy father in an interview with Peter Seewald

How many ways are there to God?

"As many as there are people. For even within the same faith each man's way is entirely personal one. We have christ's word: I am the way. In that respect, there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way are identical in terms of consciousness and will, but, on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man"

another thing is Pope Bennedict's understanding of Lauterkeit which is that in all religions there are men of interior purity who through their myths somehow touch the great mystery and find the right way of beng human.

So the idea isnt that other systems of faith are valid. But that someone can still be touched by grace, still find salvation while in those systems. Not because of those systems, and not always in spite of those systems. CS Lewis and other theologians have wrote that in the other myths of the world there are partial truths, those truths can led to a pursuit of other truths, and sanctyfying grace.

Vat 2 teaches a few things here. In regard to protestants it is the understanding that in their eccesiologies there are variance of truths that can lead to sanctyfying grace. The key is to find those truths and be open to the seeking of more truth. Not to be in these systems because they feel that it is enough. For to truely seek truth will bring you to more truth.

It has nothing to do with a denial of Christ. or simply being good. but by discovering the sanctyfing grace. Plenty of people are good people but do not have grace. Thats a product of modernism. The individual people can discover grace. Not the people-groups overall. These communities do have parital truths. The world itself has partial truths. In romans Paul is able to convict the gentiles because they should be able to be moved towards grace simply by creation. Now, if a lil islamic boy is raised islamic and is faithful to his faith and truely submits to truth and responds to it. I feel that grace can be found. The Holy Spirit moves all of creation towards Him. People in these systems can be moved by the spirit. Not because of these systems. Not inspite of them. As catholics we have more truth. We have the sacraments and the dogmas of truth. We have more truth expressed for us to react towards. But the key is still the reaction to grace expressed.

Paul says (in Rom 2 i believe) that the Lord has impressed his law on the hearts of men. This is called "natural law." It insures that no man has an excuse. Everyone will be held accountable for their actions, to the degree to which they have had the opportunity to know and accept the Truth. "To whom much has been given, much is required." I know Jesus Christ. I know his Church. I know what is True. Thus, much is required of me. But, for the indian who never knew Christ and never will, he surely cannot be held to the same standard as me. It's impossible, and unjust. Thus, he is held accountable to the natural law imprinted on his heart. You don't have to know Jesus Christ to know that some actions are "good" and other ones are "bad."