Thought On Marriage

[cmaD2006]

I think a key part of discerning a call to religious life is taking into consideration whether or not you can live the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. This is similar for diocesan priests as well (at least the obedience, and the celibacy).

Being able to live celibacy though is part of every vocation ... but both the religious and the priest are called to forgo the physical contact that naturally occurs within the context of marriage.

St. Paul speaks about this in one of his epistles ... unluckily I don't remember which one, or where right now. If I find it I'll post it (or if someone else does so please post it). Paraphrasing it, it does say that if you would be too weak to stay chaste as a single person then by all means seek to get married.

On a side note though -- there are people who are unable to live poverty and obedience within the context of religious life; yet they are able to live it within other vocations.

Just food for thought. God bless.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='The Little Way' post='1202230' date='Feb 21 2007, 11:42 PM']WOW that was more than a little harsh.

If you reread my post you'll see I wasn't talking AT ALL about seminarians or priests. I specifically said SINGLE and celibate! I wasn't criticizing him, I was asking for more clarification on his thoughts and offering my humble opinion.

Perhaps you should READ what I really posted and practice some charity next time you reply. I didn't make ANY judgment on TCW, I was sharing MY opinion. And I was really looking forward to hearing more of his thoughts on the matter.[/quote]

My initial focus was mainly at the statement made:

[quote]
If that is your opinion of marriage, then yes, perhaps you should stay celibate.[/quote]Granted, the poster then clarified that she misunderstood TCW's original post after rereading it. And I apologize, there was little if any criticism in your post.

However, I very strenuously disagree with what you have said on two points:

1:

[quote]Now, I have to humbly disagree with your statement that marriage is for people who aren't tough enough to get through life alone.[/quote]

St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 does indeed imply that although single is better, if you can't hack it, get married.

2:

[quote]If you reread my post you'll see I wasn't talking AT ALL about seminarians or priests. I specifically said SINGLE and celibate![/quote]That is irrelevant. [i]No matter if you are single and celibate or ordained and celibate, the common denominator is you are celibate.[/i] And part of discrening either life is indeed the ability to handle celibacy - again, whether one is ordained or not. If you can't handle it, then it's not for you. And because the fact that priests do have to consider this factor is why I am bringing it up. The only difference between priests and most other singles (at least those who have not taken som esort of vow) is that priests are "locked" into singlehood for the rest of their lives, whereas singles are free to marry (provided there are no canonical impediments).

TCW sums it up best when he said:

[quote name='theculturewarrior' post='1200711' date='Feb 19 2007, 05:42 PM']
Think realistically about what you can handle.[/quote]

Confirmed by cmariadiaz:

[quote name='cmariadiaz' post='1202255' date='Feb 22 2007, 01:30 AM']I think a key part of discerning a call to religious life is taking into consideration whether or not you can live the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity, and obedience. This is similar for diocesan priests as well (at least the obedience, and the celibacy).[/quote]

Which is what I was saying in my original post and is a point lost on many people pushing this stuff about "single vocation". [b]People seem to forget that not everyone can handle lifelong celibacy[/b]; in fact, I would estimate that a very small percentage can.

[AccountDeleted]

It seems ironical to me that most people have the biggest problem with the chastity vow. I don't know if I am being sexist in saying that I think it is harder for men to be celibate than it is for women, but celibacy has never been hard for me. I would continue to be celibate even if I never entered a convent. This is a natural state for me for some reason - and a very positive one. I do understand that for many - this is the hard part. And I guess the idea of marriage and family is a strong pull for many young people, so becoming a priest or religious seems like giving up a lot.

The most difficult vow for me however, is going to be obedience. I have a strong will and often distrust the opinion or advice of others. I pray always for the ability to follow the vow of obedience when I enter. I would find it just as hard to be in a married state, and would probably argue with my husband all the time - lol. In fact, marriage would probably be harder, because at least as a religious, I will have to see my superior as Christ in the community, which I might not do with a husband!

I think that either state is a challenge, that can only be met by following God's will for us completely. No way is "easier" than another.

[the lords sheep]

[quote]I don't know if I am being sexist in saying that I think it is harder for men to be celibate than it is for women[/quote]I wouldn't say harder, I would say different. I am a woman, and I have my own challenges with chastity that I am learning to deal with. They are different, though, than my dear seminarian friends. This is because we are not only physiologically different, but we are by our very natures different (and complementary!). We process things differently and react to things differently. But just because one's reaction is different, does not mean that it is lesser or easier, it's just not the same.


[quote]The most difficult vow for me however, is going to be obedience.

I think that either state is a challenge, that can only be met by following God's will for us completely. No way is "easier" than another.[/quote]Amen! You can't tell my grandparents, who have been married for 65 years, have gone through the Depression, a world war, and many other difficulties together, that they're vocation and their vows to one another are lesser because they have the companionship of the other. I know there are times when they would prefer NOT to have the companionship of the other for awhile. But their vocation is to always love each other. They also had the special task of giving love physical form in their 3 children, and then they had the challenge of raising those children and guiding them to be good people and good Christians. It took great strength and trust in God for them to live out this commitment for the past 65 years.

[quote]Don't pursue a life of celibacy because you don't feel good enough for marriage.[/quote]

TCW is right. Don't pursue a life of celibacy because you don't feel good enough for marriage. BUT don't pursue a life in marriage simply because you don't feel good enough for celibacy.

The truth is, on our own, we are good enough for neither one. It is only because God has given certain gifts, certain graces, that we are able to fully live any vocation (single, married, or religious). All vocations have their trials, but all vocations have their beautiful aspects too.
If your vocation discernment is based on deciding what you can or cannot handle (and I'm not necessarily saying anyone's here is), you have forgotten that on our own we can't handle either one. Take a step back, listen to God in prayer, and recognize that it's not your fears and feelings of inadequacy that will lead you to your vocation, but where God is calling you. His grace alone is sufficient.

Peace and Prayers to all who are discerning, no matter which path God is guiding them to.

In Jesus and Mary,
Lauren

Edited February 23, 2007 by the lords sheep

[Norseman82]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1203442' date='Feb 23 2007, 03:44 PM']It seems ironical to me that most people have the biggest problem with the chastity vow. I don't know if I am being sexist in saying that I think it is harder for men to be celibate than it is for women, but celibacy has never been hard for me. I[/quote]

You are not being sexist at all! As pointed out in the reply:

[quote name='the lords sheep' post='1203591' date='Feb 23 2007, 05:44 PM']I wouldn't say harder, I would say different. I am a woman, and I have my own challenges with chastity that I am learning to deal with. They are different, though, than my dear seminarian friends. This is because we are not only physiologically different, but we are by our very natures different (and complementary!). We process things differently and react to things differently. But just because one's reaction is different, does not mean that it is lesser or easier, it's just not the same.[/quote]

We need to realize that "equal does not always mean the same" and that there are differences that plain and simple will not go away. Among those differences is the fact that the "clocks" are on different schedules. I wish that more people would understand this, because I wonder if we lose a lot of males to immoral lifestyles or other denominations simply because they "give up" becuase they cannot find wives within the Church (or for that matter just encountering opposition because they are seeking wives in the first place!).

[LouisvilleFan]

I dunno... if your life is about following Christ, and you see where Christ ended up every time you're at Mass (on the crucifix), I don't think there's a question so much of the "easier" or "harder" path. There are no easy paths. But I think God designed each of us for a specific purpose, and while we could rebel against our calling and go another way and do allright, we'll be the most joyful following our true vocation. Of course, basing a decision because something else doesn't work out or you don't feel up to it is simply unwise. The only reason to choose a vocation is because God first chose you for it. Period.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1205944' date='Feb 28 2007, 04:33 PM']I dunno... if your life is about following Christ, and you see where Christ ended up every time you're at Mass (on the crucifix), I don't think there's a question so much of the "easier" or "harder" path. There are no easy paths. But I think God designed each of us for a specific purpose, and while we could rebel against our calling and go another way and do allright, we'll be the most joyful following our true vocation. Of course, basing a decision because something else doesn't work out or you don't feel up to it is simply unwise. The only reason to choose a vocation is because God first chose you for it. Period. [/quote]


AMEN - and thank you for reminding us all of that!

[theculturewarrior]

[quote]" But I think God designed each of us for a specific purpose, and while we could rebel against our calling and go another way and do allright, we'll be the most joyful following our true vocation. Of course, basing a decision because something else doesn't work out or you don't feel up to it is simply unwise. The only reason to choose a vocation is because God first chose you for it. Period."[/quote]

It is not a question of feeling up to it, it is a question of being up to it. I met my future wife after asking God what He wanted from me. It was around that time that He revealed to me that I am definitely not up to celibate life, as I had previously thought. Don't ask if you [b]feel[/b] up to it, ask if you [b]are[/b] up to it. If you are not, God most likely wants you to marry. Of course, I am not suggesting that you presume to know. Ask Him!

Edited March 6, 2007 by theculturewarrior

[theculturewarrior]

One last thing... that celibacy is a higher calling is a dogma of the Faith.

[theculturewarrior]

1 Corinthians 7

[quote]

1 2 3 Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman,"
2
but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.
3
The husband should fulfill his duty toward his wife, and likewise the wife toward her husband.
4
A wife does not have authority over her own body, but rather her husband, and similarly a husband does not have authority over his own body, but rather his wife.
5
Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.
6
This I say by way of concession, 4 however, not as a command.
7
Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another.
8
[b]6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do,
9
but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.
[/b]10
To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord): 7 a wife should not separate from her husband
11
--and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband--and a husband should not divorce his wife.
12
To the rest 8 I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her;
13
and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband.
14
For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy.
15
If the unbeliever separates, 9 however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace.
16
For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
17
10 Only, everyone should live as the Lord has assigned, just as God called each one. I give this order in all the churches.
18
Was someone called after he had been circumcised? He should not try to undo his circumcision. Was an uncircumcised person called? He should not be circumcised.
19
Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing; what matters is keeping God's commandments.
20
Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called.
21
Were you a slave when you were called? Do not be concerned but, even if you can gain your freedom, make the most of it.
22
For the slave called in the Lord is a freed person in the Lord, just as the free person who has been called is a slave of Christ.
23
You have been purchased at a price. Do not become slaves to human beings.
24
Brothers, everyone should continue before God in the state in which he was called.
25
Now in regard to virgins, I have no commandment from the Lord, 11 but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.
26
So this is what I think best because of the present distress: that it is a good thing for a person to remain as he is.
27
Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife.
28
If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that.
29
12 I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them,
30
those weeping as not weeping, those rejoicing as not rejoicing, those buying as not owning,
31
those using the world as not using it fully. For the world in its present form is passing away.
32
I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord.
33
But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,
34
and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
36
13 14 If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, and if a critical moment has come and so it has to be, let him do as he wishes. He is committing no sin; let them get married.
37
The one who stands firm in his resolve, however, who is not under compulsion but has power over his own will, and has made up his mind to keep his virgin, will be doing well.
38
So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better.
39
15 A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whomever she wishes, provided that it be in the Lord.
40
She is more blessed, though, in my opinion, if she remains as she is, and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.[/quote]

[RezaMikhaeil]

Yeah I wouldn't say that one is higher then another. If nobody married and had children, then there wouldn't be a future for the church, everything has an equal purpose.

Reza

[theculturewarrior]

Are you Catholic? I can understand your point of view but this is a teaching of the Catholic Church. That said, there is probably more to it that I haven't posted. I don't know a lot about it because the faithful are not properly instructed in it.

Edited March 15, 2007 by theculturewarrior

[Ora et Labora]

i actually had a friend (or have) who doesn't think he/she is good enough for marriage, which makes he/she think at times that their not good enough for that. I also find it a poor way of getting out of it. NOT that he/she is trying to get out of marriage...but life is much easier when we exclude a vocation from our options. lol. I often think I wouldn't be a good wife, and for the longest time that's why I wasn't thinking about marriage! Silly, I know. All we can do is except our coming (or already there) vocations with virtue and total dependence on God for it to stay right. that's my opinion.