A Mormon President?

[Galloglasses]

I have no idea nor experience of Mormonism nor have I ever spoken or interacted with any mormons, so I have no right to comment in this regard what so ever. Also I is not an American.

But here's a scarier question.

What if the President was Scientologist.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1599529' date='Jul 13 2008, 09:19 PM']I discussed Romney with a woman I know who is very clever and an Opus Dei numerary and our consensus was, "It's not so much that Mormonism is weird, which it is... it's more that, if you BELIEVE Mormonism is true, it says something about you as a person."

Now, my next-door neighbors are Mormon and I wouldn't necessarily say the above about the ones who are teenage or younger. But forty- or fifty-year-olds, in the usual run of things, should have had enough chances to notice something odd about their 'faith.'[/quote]

With all due respect I don't think that's to fair.

Yes Mormons believe in some, I believe, silly things. However do you consider how Catholicism looks to outsiders? I mean I can characterize Catholicism to sound very silly as well.

"Can I really trust someone who is 50 and still believes that Catholicism is true? I mean they kneel for hours in front of a piece of bread which they claim, despite all appearances to the contrary, is the 'body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ'? Their faith is founded upon a rather cruel Jewish tribal God who places Adam and Eve in a garden and tells them not to eat from a specially designated tree. When they do not only are Adam and Eve punished for taking the advise of a talking the advise of a talking snake but all of humanity is irreparably separated from God. A short time later Gad makes a deal with Abraham, he tells him to murder his eldest son(don't worry, God was really just joking around, Abrahams son was fine). They believe, despite all historical evidence to the contrary that Moses led a massive population out of Egypt by parting the Red Sea. God then set's up a detailed corpus of rules permitting slavery, polygamy, stoning children, and calls eating Shell Fish an "abomination". God orders quite a few rather barbaric conquests and then seems to mellow out around the 1st century AD. Around this time God decides to provide a sacrifice for Adams sin by sending Jesus(who is the Son of God, not biological son though mind you) to be born of a virgin and then get crucified in a rather horrific fashion. His son is a first century Palestinian Jewish Carpenter who chills until he's thirty, and then goes on a three year campaign informing people that God is not one person, but three people of one essence, and that in order to get into heaven believers must eat his flesh and drink his blood. "

I mean I understand that's a cumbersome and patronizing description and does not do justice to the brilliant work of numerous Christian philosophers and theologian. My point is that most religions sound silly to one who is not a member of that religion. I mean Mormons believe a con man was a prophet of God, you all believe you must eat God's flesh and blood to get into heaven.

It's a matter of familiarity and perspective

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1599799' date='Jul 14 2008, 03:15 PM']I have no idea nor experience of Mormonism nor have I ever spoken or interacted with any mormons, so I have no right to comment in this regard what so ever. Also I is not an American.

But here's a scarier question.

What if the President was Scientologist. [/quote]

Tom Cruise for President!!
Or John Travolta.

Either way, ladies will get nice birthing rooms, right?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1600040' date='Jul 14 2008, 05:13 PM']Tom Cruise for President!!
Or John Travolta.

Either way, ladies will get nice birthing rooms, right?[/quote]
Not sure I got that last joke =/

[Deb]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1600006' date='Jul 14 2008, 03:54 PM']With all due respect I don't think that's to fair.

Yes Mormons believe in some, I believe, silly things. However do you consider how Catholicism looks to outsiders? I mean I can characterize Catholicism to sound very silly as well.

"Can I really trust someone who is 50 and still believes that Catholicism is true? I mean they kneel for hours in front of a piece of bread which they claim, despite all appearances to the contrary, is the 'body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ'? Their faith is founded upon a rather cruel Jewish tribal God who places Adam and Eve in a garden and tells them not to eat from a specially designated tree. When they do not only are Adam and Eve punished for taking the advise of a talking the advise of a talking snake but all of humanity is irreparably separated from God. A short time later Gad makes a deal with Abraham, he tells him to murder his eldest son(don't worry, God was really just joking around, Abrahams son was fine). They believe, despite all historical evidence to the contrary that Moses led a massive population out of Egypt by parting the Red Sea. God then set's up a detailed corpus of rules permitting slavery, polygamy, stoning children, and calls eating Shell Fish an "abomination". God orders quite a few rather barbaric conquests and then seems to mellow out around the 1st century AD. Around this time God decides to provide a sacrifice for Adams sin by sending Jesus(who is the Son of God, not biological son though mind you) to be born of a virgin and then get crucified in a rather horrific fashion. His son is a first century Palestinian Jewish Carpenter who chills until he's thirty, and then goes on a three year campaign informing people that God is not one person, but three people of one essence, and that in order to get into heaven believers must eat his flesh and drink his blood. "

I mean I understand that's a cumbersome and patronizing description and does not do justice to the brilliant work of numerous Christian philosophers and theologian. My point is that most religions sound silly to one who is not a member of that religion. I mean Mormons believe a con man was a prophet of God, you all believe you must eat God's flesh and blood to get into heaven.

It's a matter of familiarity and perspective [/quote]

No, it is a matter of truth. Now, if you research the Catholic religion, you will find historical documents to back up every single thing we believe in. Mormonism, you got nothing. Scientology, nothing. Wiccan, nothing. Mormons don't deny Christ but, they do believe him and Satan are brothers and that God used to be a man on another planet.
Yep, I would judge people by what they believe. Would you vote for a Satanist? Could you believe him? Would I vote for an atheist? No way.

[Galloglasses]

Depends on the Athiest. Most athiests try to make their own ideas of Athiesm.

Edited July 14, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Hassan]

[quote name='Deb' post='1600056' date='Jul 14 2008, 04:58 PM']No, it is a matter of truth. Now, if you research the Catholic religion, you will find historical documents to back up every single thing we believe in.[/quote]


There is a historical record as to the history of Christian thought. This line does not prove that the Eucharist actually is the body and blood of Christ

[quote]Mormonism, you got nothing. Scientology, nothing. Wiccan, nothing. Mormons don't deny Christ but, they do believe him and Satan are brothers and that God used to be a man on another planet.
Yep, I would judge people by what they believe. Would you vote for a Satanist? Could you believe him? Would I vote for an atheist? No way.[/quote]

Yes, I would vote for an atheist. I'd also vote for a Muslim, Hindu, agnostic etc.

[Deb]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1600085' date='Jul 14 2008, 07:55 PM']There is a historical record as to the history of Christian thought. This line does not prove that the Eucharist actually is the body and blood of Christ

[b]Yes, it does. That however is not the point, I would not vote for someone who thinks that they are going to be rescued from earth by a spaceship. What exactly are their priorities going to be[/b]



Yes, I would vote for an atheist. I'd also vote for a Muslim, Hindu, agnostic etc.

[b]Well, that explains that. [/b][/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote]Yes, it does.[/quote]

Lol, no it does not.



[quote]That however is not the point, I would not vote for someone who thinks that they are going to be rescued from earth by a spaceship. What exactly are their priorities going to be[/quote]

As opposed to someone who believes that Jesus is going to come floating down and save the Christians?



[quote]Well, that explains that.[/quote]

Yes it does. I'm not going to apologize for not having some bigoted religious litness test. If a Roman Catholic runs and I like what he or she has to say I will vote for them. Just because he/she believes that he has to eat Jesus and drink his blood, his real literal body and blood, to get to heaven doesn't disqualify them. Same go for other religious beliefs.

[Deb]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1600124' date='Jul 14 2008, 09:10 PM']Lol, no it does not.

[b]Does too. [/b]



As opposed to someone who believes that Jesus is going to come floating down and save the Christians?

[b]I don't believe that any floating will be going on when Jesus Our Lord and King returns. We wouldn't see it anyway as everyone will be on their knees. Those who are kneeling in thanksgiving and joy and those who are kneeling in fear. [/b]



Yes it does. I'm not going to apologize for not having some bigoted religious litness test. If a Roman Catholic runs and I like what he or she has to say I will vote for them. Just because he/she believes that he has to eat Jesus and drink his blood, his real literal body and blood, to get to heaven doesn't disqualify them. Same go for other religious beliefs.[/quote]

[b]That is the difference between a Catholic and a non Catholic. A Catholic will stand by their beliefs and they base their life choices on them. A Non-Catholic will just assume a person is an uneducated bigot if they don't "tolerate" anything and any body. Most of the time, in my experience, those that stand for nothing usually will fall for anything. I will never apologize for my faith or my belief in God. My faith is the most precious gift I could ever receive as a human being. That will always come before politics. [/b]

Edited July 15, 2008 by Deb

[Hassan]

[quote]Does too.[/quote]


No it does not. A historical trail of transubstantiation reaching all the way back to Jesus(which does not exist) would not in any way prove Jesus's claims about transubstantiation are true.

There is no historical evidence that proves Transubstantiation is true. If you have it please present it and I'd be happy to go to confession and become a friar.



[quote]I don't believe that any floating will be going on when Jesus Our Lord and King returns. We wouldn't see it anyway as everyone will be on their knees. Those who are kneeling in thanksgiving and joy and those who are kneeling in fear.[/quote]

Exactly how is that somehow intellectually superior to the belief that a spaceship will come to collect believers or whatever non-sense they believe?






[quote]That is the difference between a Catholic and a non Catholic.[/quote]

No, that is the difference between me and you. Unless you are aware of some provision in Cannon Law that dictates that a Catholic may not vote for an atheist to hold a secular office.

[quote]A Catholic will stand by their beliefs and they base their life choices on them.[/quote]

Silly me, I never knew Catholics had a monopoly in standing firm to their convictions.

[quote]A Non-Catholic will just assume a person is an uneducated bigot if they don't "tolerate" anything and any body.[/quote]

I never called you a bigot or said you were uneducated. Stating that you would categorically not vote for an atheist under any circumstances is a bigoted litmus test.


Main Entry: big•ot
Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot

[Deb]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1600167' date='Jul 14 2008, 10:55 PM']No it does not. A historical trail of transubstantiation reaching all the way back to Jesus(which does not exist) would not in any way prove Jesus's claims about transubstantiation are true.

There is no historical evidence that proves Transubstantiation is true. If you have it please present it and I'd be happy to go to confession and become a friar.

[b]First, read the New Testament and writings by early church fathers and do some homework. You can't debate something you don't know to begin with. Then, as you have no faith, you may need "proof" so you can look into that too. However, those who do not believe do so by choice, so it will be up to you. Just because you don't, does not mean it is not true, just that you have not made that leap yet.
[/b][url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/english_pdf/Lanciano1.pdf"]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mi...f/Lanciano1.pdf[/url]



Exactly how is that somehow intellectually superior to the belief that a spaceship will come to collect believers or whatever non-sense they believe?


[b]You talk about intellectual superiority as if that is a good thing. Intellectual superiority has been a destructive force since the beginning of time. It was the driving force behind Hitler's movement and is what has brought us abortion, euthanasia and even now allowing the murder of children born with physical disabilites. The idea that intellect is all and as a superior force, will only lead to more destruction in our world. Human beings are made in the image of God and are spiritual beings. To reduce all to intellect is foolish, as history shows.
You have missed my point completely. I am more concerned with what a persons' beliefs will influence them to do. Part of that of course would depend on how strong they live their beliefs. There are many who call themselves Catholic that are Catholic in name only so I would not necessarily find them an acceptable candidate either. If someone believes that in a few years, a spaceship is going to come down and take ONLY those away who are in the "spaceship" gang, I really do not want them making the decisions of my country that will affect everyone. If someone has no belief in God at all I do not want them either making decisions because they will only be relying on their intellect which makes them dangerous. If someone believes in God, they know they will have to answer to a higher power at some point so they will be more prone to pray for guidance and look out for all children of God, hence all in the country. Does this always happen, no. If the person is weak or not too bright or easily led by others who are evil. we get into all kinds of nasty things. (see history, and not too distant)[/b]





No, that is the difference between me and you. Unless you are aware of some provision in Cannon Law that dictates that a Catholic may not vote for an atheist to hold a secular office.

[b]How a Catholic votes is dictated by a well developed conscience and should be influenced by nothing else. [/b]

Silly me, I never knew Catholics had a monopoly in standing firm to their convictions.

[b]Well, look what you learned. [/b]

I never called you a bigot or said you were uneducated. Stating that you would categorically not vote for an atheist under any circumstances is a bigoted litmus test.

[b]Only to the uninformed, intellectually superior types. yada yada yada[/b]


Main Entry: big•ot
Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot[/quote]

[b][size=3]su·pe·ri·or/b] (s[img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oobreve.gif[/img]-pîr[img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif[/img][img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif[/img]-[img]http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif[/img]r) [i]adj.[/i] [b]1. [/b]Higher than another in rank, station, or authority: [i][color="#226699"]a superior officer.[/color][/i][b]2. [/b]Of a higher nature or kind.[b]3. [/b]Of great value or excellence; extraordinary.[b]4. [/b]Greater in number or amount than another: [i][color="#226699"]an army defeated by superior numbers of enemy troops.[/color][/i][b]5. [/b]Affecting an attitude of disdain or conceit; haughty and supercilious.[b]6. [/b]Above being affected or influenced; indifferent or immune: [i][color="#226699"]"Trust magnates were superior to law"[/color][/i] [i][color="#226699"]Gustavus Myers.[/color][/i][b]7. [/b]Located higher than another; upper.

THESAURUS:
[url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/arrogance"][color="#1d4994"]arrogance[/color][/url], [url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/haughtiness"][color="#1d4994"]haughtiness[/color][/url], [url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hauteur"][color="#1d4994"]hauteur[/color][/url], [url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/high-handedness"][color="#1d4994"]high-handedness[/color][/url],[url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supremacy"][color="#1d4994"]supremacy[/color][/url], [url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/domination"][color="#1d4994"]domination[/color][/url], [url="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mastery"][color="#1d4994"]mastery[/color][/url]

Edited July 15, 2008 by Deb

[Hassan]

[quote]First, read the New Testament[/quote]

I have, numerous times.

[quote]and writings by early church fathers[/quote]

I don't claim to have read every work by every Church father. I'm fairly familiar with Augustine and have read most statements I know of on the Eucharist. I agree that the approved Church Fathers and New Testament agree with the Catholic account.

[quote]and do some homework. You can't debate something you don't know to begin with.[/quote]

What don't I know about? Transubstantiation?

[quote]Then, as you have no faith, you may need "proof" so you can look into that too.[/quote]

You claimed your position was verifiable, which made you distinct from Mormons. If you are going to make such a claim, I'm going to ask you to actually back it up.

[i] "Now, if you research the Catholic religion, you will find historical documents to back up every single thing we believe in"[/i]

[quote]However, those who do not believe do so by choice, so it will be up to you. Just because you don't, does not mean it is not true, just that you have not made that leap yet.
[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mi...f/Lanciano1.pdf"]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mi...f/Lanciano1.pdf[/url][/quote]

You said that the use of historical documents verifies your claims. If you are admitting it is a movement into faith that is fine, and I have no objection.

I am aware of that case, if you can link the scientific reports referenced I'd be happy to look at them.

[Hassan]

[quote]You talk about intellectual superiority as if that is a good thing.[/quote]

You claimed your religious beliefs were grounded in the findings of the historical sciences. The historical sciences are an intellectual endeavor. You were the one who brought in "intellectual superiority", you claimed that your positions were superior by the findings of intellectual endeavors than those of Mormonism.

[quote]Intellectual superiority has been a destructive force since the beginning of time. It was the driving force behind Hitler's movement and is what has brought us abortion, euthanasia and even now allowing the murder of children born with physical disabilites. The idea that intellect is all and as a superior force, will only lead to more destruction in our world. Human beings are ade in the image of God and are spiritual beings. To reduce all to intellect is foolish, as history shows.[/quote]

That's just utter absurdity and has not the slightest thing to do with anything I had said. Stating a position is intellectual superior to another is entirely different come some pejorative/elitist use of the term.


[quote]You have missed my point completely. I am more concerned with what a persons' beliefs will influence them to do. Part of that of course would depend on how strong they live their beliefs. There are many who call themselves Catholic that are Catholic in name only so I would not necessarily find them an acceptable candidate either. If someone believes that in a few years, a spaceship is going to come down and take ONLY those away who are in the "spaceship" gang, I really do not want them making the decisions of my country that will affect everyone. If someone has no belief in God at all I do not want them either making decisions because they will only be relying on their intellect which makes them dangerous. If someone believes in God, they know they will have to answer to a higher power at some point so they will be more prone to pray for guidance and look out for all children of God, hence all in the country. Does this always happen, no. If the person is weak or not too bright or easily led by others who are evil. we get into all kinds of nasty things. (see history, and not too distant)[/quote]

Let's be absolutely clear.

Are you saying that only a faithful Catholic is fit to hold public office?






[quote]How a Catholic votes is dictated by a well developed conscience and should be influenced by nothing else.[/quote]

That's not what I asked. You claimed "That's the difference between a Catholic and a non-Catholic" implying that your position was universal to all faithful Catholics.

I am asking for some citation from the Church. Does the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church say that only faithful Catholics are fit to hold public office, or that no atheist is ever fit to hold public office?




[quote]Well, look what you learned.[/quote]

Awwww, that's clever.

Again, let's be absolutely clear.

Are you claiming that only a faithful Roman Catholic can hold and stand by firm moral commitments?


[quote]Only to the uninformed, intellectually superior types. yada yada yada[/quote]


bhdbhvsdbcasbhbx hak132894y2301$$&^(^$W#@%^&*&(?





[quote][size=3]su·pe·ri·or/b] (s-pîr-r) adj. [b]1. Higher than another in rank, station, or authority: a superior officer.2. Of a higher nature or kind.3. Of great value or excellence; extraordinary.4. Greater in number or amount than another: an army defeated by superior numbers of enemy troops.5. Affecting an attitude of disdain or conceit; haughty and supercilious.6. Above being affected or influenced; indifferent or immune: "Trust magnates were superior to law" Gustavus Myers.7. Located higher than another; upper.

THESAURUS:
arrogance, haughtiness, hauteur, high-handedness,supremacy, domination, mastery[/quote]

What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Galloglasses]

Hassan reminds me ALOT of J.I.M.S.H. for some reason.