Praying Souls

[Farsight one]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1207610' date='Mar 4 2007, 12:57 AM']Farsight one,

You're putting words in our mouths.[/quote]No, I wasn't. I was asking a question. If I was putting words in your mouth, I would be telling you what you believe instead of asking.

[quote]Of course, we are not perfect. But we are redeemed by the grace of God.[/quote]Since you are not perfect, and it is necessary to be perfect to enter heaven, how would you enter heaven in your current state?

[quote]If Purgatory is some nebulous middle ground where a person must spend some time to be purified, it goes against scriptures that say there is no time beyond here on the earth.[/quote]And where might it say this?

[quote]Heaven doesn't function like here on the earth. All time exists in heaven, so any time you need to be purified would instantly happen. Once you leave this dimension, you'd exist in heaven, and once you exist in heaven, you exist beyond time and wouldn't need any time to be purified because you exist in the past, present, and future.[/quote]1. You're contradicting yourself. First you say time doesn't exist in heaven, then you say all time exists in heaven. Which is it?
2. Your logicical syllogism to disprove the existence of purgatory first assumes that purgatory doesn't exist. That is a blatant logical fallacy.
3. How can one exist int he past, present, and future(concepts of time) if there is no time?

And - please respond to the biblical evidence on page one that implies the existence of purgatory. Simply saying that it was taken out of context does nothing. You need to explain how.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1207617' date='Mar 4 2007, 02:11 AM']No, I wasn't. I was asking a question. If I was putting words in your mouth, I would be telling you what you believe instead of asking.

Since you are not perfect, and it is necessary to be perfect to enter heaven, how would you enter heaven in your current state?

And where might it say this?

1. You're contradicting yourself. First you say time doesn't exist in heaven, then you say all time exists in heaven. Which is it?
2. Your logicical syllogism to disprove the existence of purgatory first assumes that purgatory doesn't exist. That is a blatant logical fallacy.
3. How can one exist int he past, present, and future(concepts of time) if there is no time?

And - please respond to the biblical evidence on page one that implies the existence of purgatory. Simply saying that it was taken out of context does nothing. You need to explain how.[/quote]
First of all - The only reason time exist is to create every purpose [b]under the heaven[/b]
[quote name='Ecclesiastes 3:1']To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:[/quote]

When we are recieved into heaven, it is the [b]last time[/b]

[quote name='1 Peter 1:4-6']To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the [b]last time.[/b]

Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:[/quote]

[quote name='1 John 2:17-19']And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the [b]last time.[/b]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.[/quote]

Eternity exists beyond time and is all time. Think of it like looking into a house through a window. You can see what's going on, but you're not in the house.

God exists in eternity, and sees everything - all places, all times. That is why he can speak through people and tell them exactly what will happen.

The fact, in theology, [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Eternity"]enterity means the [b]timeless[/b] state into which the soul passes at a person's death.[/url]

There is no time in Eternity, and it is the focal point of all time, because time is a function of God to create his perfect will in us.

I hope that explains what I am talking about. Time doesn't exist in eternity, so there is no time that is needed for one to go through purgatory, because God is all time.

Edited March 4, 2007 by FullTruth

[N/A Gone]

fulltruth,

I thought you were just YHWH and bible now? You sound indoctrinated with basic poor quality soteriological propaganda

[FullTruth]

You see Rev, When one is recieved into heaven, it is the Last Time. Scripture says so.

So if it is the Last Time, Time must not exist in heaven, or there would be more time.

Purgatory is a doctrine of men, which doesn't really have any biblical foundation. One can always go into the Bible and show tonnes of scriptures that suggest Purgatory, but it doesn't exist because you don't need any more time to be purified before you enter heaven, and the reason for it is there is no time in heaven. Once you leave the earth, you exist beyond time.

That is why Jesus Christ existed from before the foundation of the earth, even though he had a beginning in time.

[kujo]

Someone once told me that sin damages our souls. Although we are sincerely penitent for the sins we have committed, the damage still remains. This notion is evident in our proclivity towards repetition of the same sins over and over and over. Due to [i]concupiscence[/i] (sp??), we are going to continue sinning despite our steadfast, honest, sincere faith. But the fact remains that we are damaged by these rejections of Our Lord. It's like launching little pebbles at our souls which leave dents and malformations on them.

That is where purgatory comes in.

Purgatory is time/place/state of being/etc. in which God removes the damage caused by our sins and failures prior to our triumphant entrance to heaven where we will spend all of eternity praising God with our clean, purified souls.

I hope that makes sense...

Edited March 4, 2007 by kujo

[FullTruth]

[quote name='kujo' post='1207885' date='Mar 4 2007, 05:14 PM']Someone once told me that sin damages our souls. Although we are sincerely penitent for the sins we have committed, the damage still remains. This notion is evident in our proclivity towards repetition of the same sins over and over and over. Due to [i]concupiscence[/i] (sp??), we are going to continue sinning despite our steadfast, honest, sincere faith. But the fact remains that we are damaged by these rejections of Our Lord. It's like launching little pebbles at our souls which leave dents and malformations on them.

That is where purgatory comes in.

Purgatory is time/place/state of being/etc. in which God removes the damage caused by our sins and failures prior to our triumphant entrance to heaven where we will spend all of eternity praising God with our clean, purified souls.

I hope that makes sense...[/quote]
That makes sense, but I think it is real time. Nothing is impossible for God, so the moment of our deaths, he can instantly remove all that damage because he can bring the future to us immediately through eternity. So there is no time we have to wait, because we are instantly healed of all the damage sin has caused us in this life.

In fact, if I can be so bold, I believe that can happen here on the earth too. I believe that God can heal of you the spiritual condition that makes you sin, and you can go on from there with peace in your heart, knowing you have been forgiven.

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[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=65312"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=65312[/url]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1208003' date='Mar 4 2007, 07:35 PM']That makes sense, but I think it is real time. Nothing is impossible for God, so the moment of our deaths, he can instantly remove all that damage because he can bring the future to us immediately through eternity. So there is no time we have to wait, because we are instantly healed of all the damage sin has caused us in this life.

In fact, if I can be so bold, I believe that can happen here on the earth too. I believe that God can heal of you the spiritual condition that makes you sin, and you can go on from there with peace in your heart, knowing you have been forgiven.[/quote]

This is true. The fact is, you either live your purgation on earth, or after death. We should strive to be purged now. It won't be easy and sudden, but it will happen. Let us take part in the suffering of Christ, but rejoice in his resurrection!

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Why look any farther than the best blog on catholic apologetics?

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-1.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-1.html#links[/url]

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-2.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-2.html#links[/url]

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1208304' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:00 AM']Why look any farther than the best blog on catholic apologetics?

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-1.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-1.html#links[/url]

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-2.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-2.html#links[/url][/quote]
I appreciate the links, but I don't think there is a Purgatory for the believers.

If we have been faithful, and loved God through our lord Jesus Christ, why would God be so cruel as to prevent us from being with him. Couldn't he just bring us to the future condition instantly?

I believe he has done that, is doing that, and will continue to do that for all time.

Eternity is timeless, so God can bring your future you into existance immediately, here in time and in eternity. All that really matters if you believe that or not. As you have faith, be it on to you.

[N/A Gone]

In reading your posts I am sure you have an earnest heart to be faithful, but I see a very underdeveloped understanding of sanctification

You are so close on so many count friend. Let me hope to clarify,

[quote]There are many misconceptions of purgatory, but the biggest is what catholics really belief. The doctrine is simple

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp[/url][/quote]

So, lets flow it like this

Thesis: Purgatory is a real state of being in which unpurified souls are detached from worldliness, namely sin and inclination to sin, and are purified in order to enter paradise.

Argument:

1. Those who repent of sin are still attached to sin (even St. Paul admits that he sins after his repentance, and Ananias in Acts 5 committed a sin agains the Holy Spirit after he had already been a member of the Christian community). This is the sanctification as we spoke about above
2. Some of them die in this state (such as Ananias), but are to be saved.
3. Revelation says that nothing unclean shall enter Heaven (Rev 21:27).
4. Therefore, it is of a logical necessity that some sort of further purification occurs after death for sin.

Now, the only thing you could disagree with is the second premise, by saying that those who die in that state go to hell, but since it is clear from human experience that we all sin and quite often, that position would very terribly negate God's mercy.

So the conclusion is accurate and necessary.

However, there is one more clue to purgatory. In 2 Timothy 4:16-18, we see a great deal of past tense language. St. Paul tells the reader to pray for Onesiphorus, that the Lord may give him mercy (which he says twice, once referring to his household, presumably in mourning, and once adding "on that day," which we know from Scripture to be a common phrase referring to the day of judgment). Therefore, St. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus may be shown mercy in being judged by God. However, St. Paul also speaks about him as if he were a very holy man. Why would a holy man need to receive mercy after death in a OSAS theology? It simply doesn't add up. He needed mercy because, as is the case with almost all holy people, he still wasn't perfectly purified. Yes, I insist that purgatory be called mercy. Punishment is pulled away from the soul in purgatory, not added to it. The soul in purgatory is not suffering from God inflicting wounds, but from God's healing of wounds (everyone knows that ripping off band-aids hurts). Purgatory is a type of mercy from God. I have been told by a few people that a lot of Protestants don't like the idea of purgatory because they don't like the thought of pain being associated with God. Well, the pain is because of us, not because of God.

So yes, life as a believer is the start of the sanctification process, but it needs to finish before we can enter into the divine. CS lewis was a believer in purgatory and he understood it as a stripping away of the "fallen parts" I personally embrace purgatory. If we are not pure we will be burnt up. If not for purgatory we will never enter the heavenly realm.

I respect where you are coming from. Did you read both of the links I gave you?

[kujo]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1208318' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:09 AM']Eternity is timeless, so God can bring your future you into existance immediately, here in time and in eternity. All that really matters if you believe that or not. As you have faith, be it on to you.[/quote]

You are right on the money here, FT. God is TIMELESS and, thus, His will is carried out in a [i]timeless[/i] manner; however, if we are to examine things through the fractured-prism of our sense of time, things that, to God, happen "immediately" could, to us humans, play out over months, years, decades, millenia, etc. That's why it's funny when we get all crazy about putting deadlines on our prayers ("God, I need to know....by Monday!"). If we are truly discerning and pining for His will, then we must be open to the fact that God does things at the exact moment when they are needed--not a moment sooner, not a moment later.

Purgatory, as well as heaven and hell, shouldn't be viewed in terms of time. It's over when it's over...and who cares how long it is anyway? The fact that we, the faithful, are eagerly anticipating our arrival into Heaven should sustain us through our troubles here on earth and through whatever purgation is necessary to prepare us for His glory.

I am glad to read that you are at least open to the concept...shows a heck of a lot more maturity than, say, Budge, who blindly-rejects any sort of open discussion and exchange of ideas. (Sorry, Budge, but you get on my nerves. But I love you.)