Praying Souls

[Urib2007]

Where in the Bible does it speak of purgatory?

[cmotherofpirl]

Start by remembering the Bible is not the total revelation of Jesus Christ, that is not a biblical notion.
Purgatory is discussed in scriptures and the Early Church Fathers as well.

Scriptures on Purgatory

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

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II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.


scripturecatholic.org

[Urib2007]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1200195' date='Feb 18 2007, 10:50 PM']Start by remembering the Bible is not the total revelation of Jesus Christ, that is not a biblical notion.
Purgatory is discussed in scriptures and the Early Church Fathers as well.

Scriptures on Purgatory

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.[/quote]

[color="#000080"]Here is a prime example that if you approach the scriptures with an agenda of trying to find a verse to prove your false doctrine, you will find it. All you have to do is to take it out of context and build up an antithesis based upon other obscure verses that have no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand.

First of all, I cannot find anywhere that Onesiphorus is dead when Paul wrote Timothy about his service and concern for his imprisonment. Then they take this assumption and then further enhance it by using a figure of speech, "on that day" (referring to the day of the Lord, or the day of the Lord's judgment) and build up a case for a place that is never mentioned in scriptures in the first place. It is the exact way that they try to "prove" the rapture. The rapture is never mentioned in the first place, then they take verses out of context then build a doctrine around that heresy.

Purgatory was first created by the Catholic church to extract money from the population to "buy" their dead loved ones out of the suffering of purgatory and into the full salvation of Heaven. The question you have to ask yourself is...If there is a purgatory, why then was the blood of Jesus not enough to redeem the person in the first place? It just smacks the face of God for the sacrifice of Christ's death, that somehow it wasn't enough to cover the sins of the person and now they need to further "pay" the church for the privilege of going to heaven. This is just one of many of the cleverly devised "rackets" the Catholic church devised to line their pockets full of money. since it was based upon the premises that the Church held the keys of the kingdom, they then were given full reign to scare people into control by threatening them with all sorts of "excommunications" and such. It is all heresy at the highest levels that seeks to control and dominate a population with superstition. There will be many Catholic priests, Bishops, and Popes in Hell paying for their heresy. They are just the Christian version of the "pharisees".

Look high and look low through out the entire body of scripture and try to find where purgatory exists and you will come up completely emptyhanded. The same is true about the Rapture, or any false doctrine for that matter. Rightly dividing the Word of truth is a sign of maturity, and it is the path to true knowledge.[/color]

[jeffpugh]

They ARE redeemed, but are NOT perfect. Those of purgatory still cling to worldly things that prohibit fully loving God (in a large or small way). You are confusing purgatory with indulgences which were indeed abused in the 16th century but was not invented just then to get people's money. As for damnation of popes, priest and bishops, I do not say yay or nay on that matter. But, because of the knowledge they are expected to have about the Divine, there is much expected of them (cf Luke 12:47 ff).

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Urib2007' post='1207402' date='Mar 3 2007, 07:38 PM'][color="#000080"]Here is a prime example that if you approach the scriptures with an agenda of trying to find a verse to prove your false doctrine, you will find it. All you have to do is to take it out of context and build up an antithesis based upon other obscure verses that have no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand.

First of all, I cannot find anywhere that Onesiphorus is dead when Paul wrote Timothy about his service and concern for his imprisonment. Then they take this assumption and then further enhance it by using a figure of speech, "on that day" (referring to the day of the Lord, or the day of the Lord's judgment) and build up a case for a place that is never mentioned in scriptures in the first place. It is the exact way that they try to "prove" the rapture. The rapture is never mentioned in the first place, then they take verses out of context then build a doctrine around that heresy.

Purgatory was first created by the Catholic church to extract money from the population to "buy" their dead loved ones out of the suffering of purgatory and into the full salvation of Heaven. The question you have to ask yourself is...If there is a purgatory, why then was the blood of Jesus not enough to redeem the person in the first place? It just smacks the face of God for the sacrifice of Christ's death, that somehow it wasn't enough to cover the sins of the person and now they need to further "pay" the church for the privilege of going to heaven. This is just one of many of the cleverly devised "rackets" the Catholic church devised to line their pockets full of money. since it was based upon the premises that the Church held the keys of the kingdom, they then were given full reign to scare people into control by threatening them with all sorts of "excommunications" and such. It is all heresy at the highest levels that seeks to control and dominate a population with superstition. There will be many Catholic priests, Bishops, and Popes in Hell paying for their heresy. They are just the Christian version of the "pharisees".

Look high and look low through out the entire body of scripture and try to find where purgatory exists and you will come up completely emptyhanded. The same is true about the Rapture, or any false doctrine for that matter. Rightly dividing the Word of truth is a sign of maturity, and it is the path to true knowledge.[/color][/quote]
Gotta love that doctrine.

You don't really have to live a pure and holy life before the Lord, because you can go to Purgatory and be purified.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1207450' date='Mar 3 2007, 08:05 PM']Gotta love that doctrine.

You don't really have to live a pure and holy life before the Lord, because you can go to Purgatory and be purified. [/quote]
Do you live a completely pure and holy life? In other words, are you sinless? If you claim so, then you are blaspheming. If you are not, then you must become completely pure to enter heaven, as is mentioned in the bible. So which is it?

[jeffpugh]

[quote]Gotta love that doctrine.

You don't really have to live a pure and holy life before the Lord, because you can go to Purgatory and be purified. [/quote]
No. Read the scriptures. St Paul is against licentiousness. Thanks for playing FullTruth.

Edit: Dang, someone always beats me to the post, eh? :

Edited March 4, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1207453' date='Mar 3 2007, 09:19 PM']Do you live a completely pure and holy life? In other words, are you sinless? If you claim so, then you are blaspheming. If you are not, then you must become completely pure to enter heaven, as is mentioned in the bible. So which is it?[/quote]
I consider living pure and holy a little different than you.

I like the idea of whole hearted, because the JPS uses that instead of perfect all the time.

If you're whole hearted for the lord, God will forgive every sin and allow you into heaven. When you die, you enter eternity, and there is no time in eternity - which is why it is eternity. So there is no time needed to purify because there is no time in eternity. You either make it into heaven, or you don't. You either completely trust the lord for salvation, or you don't.

That is why I can say, without and doubt, I already exist in heaven, and I am already praising Christ before the throne saying, Worthy, Worthy, Worthy is the lamb of God. Why, because one day I will be recieved unto glory, and once I am there, I have always exsisted in glory, because there is no time in glory.

Have I sinned, Yes. But I don't live anymore, but Christ in me.

So when I die, Christ will recieve me to himself. I will enter into Glory, and that is why I have always existed in glory because glory has no time in it.

That is why I believe Jesus Christ has always existed in Glory as well, and can still have a beginning in time, but once he was recieved into glory, he always existed there.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1207454' date='Mar 3 2007, 09:21 PM']No. Read the scriptures. St Paul is against licentiousness. Thanks for playing FullTruth.

Edit: Dang, someone always beats me to the post, eh? :[/quote]
I like your response better.

You're right about certain sins making it impossible for you to enter heaven and send you straight to hell. But here's the thing, There is no purgatory. Purgatory relies on one major doctrinal error - there is time in heaven.

There is no time in heaven, and that is why it is called eternity. So there is no time for one to be purified once you die. If there is no time, that means someone can't be purified of the sins they have committed because time doesn't pass there. Past, Present, Future exist simultaneously in heaven. So you instantly become the past, present, and future at the same time.

So you immediately go into heaven, or you immediately go to hell once you die.

[jeffpugh]

I don't know whether you intend this FullTruth, but it's coming across that you are carrying the weight of your salvation. One DOES need to submit to Jesus to receive grace but we are not perfect. We either make it to heaven -- some have to take a detour to purgatory to wipe away the blemishes that prohibit us from seeing and Worshiping God fully --or you turn from God and God's revelation and go to Hell. Either is a choice. No one is forced either way.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1207486' date='Mar 3 2007, 09:58 PM']I don't know whether you intend this FullTruth, but it's coming across that you are carrying the weight of your salvation. One DOES need to submit to Jesus to receive grace but we are not perfect. We either make it to heaven -- some have to take a detour to purgatory to wipe away the blemishes that prohibit us from seeing and Worshiping God fully --or you turn from God and God's revelation and go to Hell. Either is a choice. No one is forced either way.[/quote]
I am sorry if it seems like I carry any weight of my salvation on me. I don't. I am only glad for the grace God has shown me. I only trust Jesus Christ death on the cross. I have faith that God's love for us has blotted all of our sins out.

Have I submitted myself to him. Yes. Every single day I pray. Every single day I read my bible. Every single day I make him my one and only. Every single time I ask him to guide me in my life.

I believe God's love covers all of our sins, so we instantly go into heaven when we die if we have been faithful.

[quote name='Proverbs 10:12']Hatred stirreth up strifes; but love covereth all transgressions.[/quote]

[quote name='John 3:16']For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/quote]

Eternity has no time, which makes it impossible for one to be purified over time through purgatory. Either God's love covers all your transgressions, or you don't trust in it. I prefer to trust totally in God's unwarranted favour (which is what Grace really is), than not too.

I do conclude with you that you are not forced into either as well. I just don't believe a believer has to wait before entering heaven. Not believing in Purgatory is also great for a believer. You don't have to worry about weither you enter into heaven or not if you have been faithful in christ. If you have, you will instantly be glorified before the throne. No waiting required.

The reason is that God's love covers all your transgressions.

Edited March 4, 2007 by FullTruth

[Budge]

One does NOT need Purgatory to be made perfect.

Every saved Christian is made PERFECT in Christ.

[quote]Purgatory was first created by the Catholic church to extract money from the population to "buy" their dead loved ones out of the suffering of purgatory and into the full salvation of Heaven. The question you have to ask yourself is...If there is a purgatory, why then was the blood of Jesus not enough to redeem the person in the first place? It just smacks the face of God for the sacrifice of Christ's death, that somehow it wasn't enough to cover the sins of the person and now they need to further "pay" the church for the privilege of going to heaven.[/quote]

Amen I totally agree.

It basically says Jesus's blood was not good enough to save you, redeem you and CLEANSE you.

I believe and I have stated this before here, that Purgatory is ACTUALLY HELL. If someone is not under the protection of God, why wouldnt Satan LIE to them and say...ONE DAY YOU WILL GET OUT...to make the torture even more complete?

I have cried thinking of this.

Purgatory has FIRE--just like hell, the Catholic saints taught it had suffering worse then of earth---just like HELL, and purgatory is SEPERATION FROM GOD--[against Hebrews 13 and JUST LIKE HELL}

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vulgata Clementina']Ítaque fratres, state : et tenéte traditiónes, quas didicístis, sive per sermónem, sive per epístolam nostram.[/quote]

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207556' date='Mar 3 2007, 10:21 PM']One does NOT need Purgatory to be made perfect.

Every saved Christian is made PERFECT in Christ.[/quote]Are you actually claiming to be perfect? Cuz that's blasphemous in any christian religion. You're a sinner, and are not perfect. If Christ had made you perfect, wouldn't you never sin?

[quote]It basically says Jesus's blood was not good enough to save you, redeem you and CLEANSE you.[/quote]It was of course enough to save each and every one of us, but doesn't it seem logical that God would want you to show your loyalty before he up and saves you?

[quote]I believe and I have stated this before here, that Purgatory is ACTUALLY HELL. If someone is not under the protection of God, why wouldnt Satan LIE to them and say...ONE DAY YOU WILL GET OUT...to make the torture even more complete?[/quote]Then what do you have to say in response to the plethora of bible verses that evidence the existence of some middle ground where sins are cleansed?

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1207606' date='Mar 4 2007, 01:48 AM']Are you actually claiming to be perfect? Cuz that's blasphemous in any christian religion. You're a sinner, and are not perfect. If Christ had made you perfect, wouldn't you never sin?

It was of course enough to save each and every one of us, but doesn't it seem logical that God would want you to show your loyalty before he up and saves you?

Then what do you have to say in response to the plethora of bible verses that evidence the existence of some middle ground where sins are cleansed?[/quote]
Farsight one,

You're putting words in our mouths.

Of course, we are not perfect. But we are redeemed by the grace of God.

If Purgatory is some nebulous middle ground where a person must spend some time to be purified, it goes against scriptures that say there is no time beyond here on the earth.

So how does one get purified once their soul is in purgator, if it takes some time to be purified? There is no time in eternity, because the past, present, and future all exist in one place. So you'd be instantly purified if you needed time to be purified, right?

Heaven doesn't function like here on the earth. All time exists in heaven, so any time you need to be purified would instantly happen. Once you leave this dimension, you'd exist in heaven, and once you exist in heaven, you exist beyond time and wouldn't need any time to be purified because you exist in the past, present, and future.