Praying Souls

[dairygirl4u2c]

so what's with this doctrine of needing to pray souls out of purgatory? it seems so random. why can't souls work themselves out? i get this image they are in a cocoon until someone's prayer intervenes and they can get right.
is this official doctrine that you must pray them out?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[b]Q. 1383. Are the souls in Purgatory sure of their salvation?

A. The souls in Purgatory are sure of their salvation, and they will enter heaven as soon as they are completely purified and made worthy to enjoy that presence of God which is called the Beatific Vision.

Q. 1384. Do we know what souls are in Purgatory, and how long they have to remain there?

A. We do not know what souls are in Purgatory nor how long they have to remain there; hence we continue to pray for all persons who have died apparently in the true faith and free from mortal sin. They are called the faithful departed.

Q. 1385. Can the faithful on earth help the souls in Purgatory?

A. The faithful on earth can help the souls in Purgatory by their prayers, fasts, alms, deeds; by indulgences, and by having Masses said for them.[/b]

i do not think prayers are needed, they are just very helpful.

[Aloysius]

they are undergoing the process of purification and healing at basically a consistent speed all around... but some need more purification and healing than others and thus some will remain there longer than others. but our prayers and good deeds applied for their sake speed up their purification and healing; we can merit for them a more thorough faster healing and purification. this is because God wishes that we be able to help each other out in the plan of salvation; he wishes to use humans to help save otheer humans. and perfect justice calls for good deeds and prayers to be done in reparation for the evil that was done by the sins of the souls in purgatory; so either they undergo the normal speed of the process in being purified, or their evils are atoned for by our prayers and good deeds and their process is sped up.

[Paddington]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1199103' date='Feb 18 2007, 05:39 AM']...............speed up their purification and healing; we can merit for them a more thorough faster healing and purification. ...................and their process is sped up.[/quote]

"more thorough" is wrong, isn't it? It will be complete either way.

"Speed up," "faster," and "sped up" imply time. I've been taught (I think) to not think of purgatory and time together. Is there a better way of saying it? Or is that the only available way to say it?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1198913' date='Feb 18 2007, 12:51 AM']so what's with this doctrine of needing to pray souls out of purgatory? it seems so random. why can't souls work themselves out? i get this image they are in a cocoon until someone's prayer intervenes and they can get right.
is this official doctrine that you must pray them out?[/quote]
Random? At it's core, 'praying' other people out of 'purgatory' is fundamental Christian philosophy and theology.

Back in the Violence of God thread, we discussed the principle that we humans can merit or earn good and bad consequences that benefit of harm others. The principle that Jesus Christ as a Human, can earn/merit salvation or justification for you and me to be with God by His sacrifice also means that we can and do the same for each other on a spiritual level. We humans can 'operate or effect the "power" to help others, but the "power" is God's grace and must be given to us from Him.

In other words, since God gives us Grace that enables us to help souls in purgatory, shouldn't we be obligated to help those in purgatory? The whole idea of God giving Grace to the Human Race, not just as unassociated individuals, but as members in 'one complete body' is often repeated and reinforced in Scripture, both Old and New Testament.

[Moneybags]

Praying for souls in purgatory is a dogma of the Church, so it must be believed. Saints have also always advocated this dogma, and some have even seen visions of the souls there needing prayers. Look to St. Faustina and blessed Catherine Emmerich for instance.

The term "purgatory" is not in the Bible, but instead look to these Biblical references: Mt. 5:48, Mt. 5:26, Mt. 12: 32, 1 Cor.15:29, 1 Tim. 1:16

[b]This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.[/b]
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

[b]From Blessed Anna Katarina Emmerich:[/b]

"I was in Purgatory tonight. It was as if I were being led into an abyss, where I saw a large hall. It is touching to see the Poor Souls so quiet and sad. Yet their faces reveal that they have joy in their hearts, because of their recollection of God's loving mercy. On a glorious throne, I saw the Blessed Virgin, more beautiful than I had ever beheld Her. She said, 'I entreat you to instruct people to pray for the suffering Souls in Purgatory, for they certainly will pray much for us out of gratitude. Prayer for these holy souls is very pleasing to God because it enables them to see Him sooner...'" (From the Revelation of Blessed Anna Katarina Emmerich)

[b]How can we assist the souls suffering in purgatory?[/b]

By our prayers. The Holy Scripture says: "It is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2nd Machabees 12:46).
By the holy sacrifice of the Mass. This is why we remember the faithfully departed at Mass.
By gaining indulgences for them.
Offering our Holy Communions for them.
Praying the Stations of the Cross for the souls in Purgatory
By doing Heroic Acts of Charity
Through almsgiving, penance, and fasting

[cmotherofpirl]

You can join us at : [url="http://www.pwhs-mfi.org/"]http://www.pwhs-mfi.org/[/url]

[jmjtina]

I pray daily for them.

They need it!

[jmjtina]

Random? Hardly.

[dairygirl4u2c]

If they don't necessarily need it then it makes sense. I was only saying that they all needed the prayers was random and without reason necessarily.
If there are some that need prayers, I can see that the same way some of us need the prayers applies to them. If they are all helped the prayers, that makes sense for those reasons too.

[123]

[quote]why can't souls work themselves out?[/quote]

Indeed a good questions, however a tad mislead. What the answer truly is, is not that Spirits that have passed on cannot work themselves out.[b] It is by God's determination that they will be recieved into heaven beyond purgation. But, our prayers for them are like the prayers for a living loved one whom may be suffering from a permanent or temporal illness. We ask God's power for their release and the rest of their souls like God's healing power to heal a loved one of sickness and pain.[/b]

Edited February 18, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Anomaly]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1199579' date='Feb 18 2007, 12:37 PM']Praying for souls in purgatory is a dogma of the Church, so it must be believed. Saints have also always advocated this dogma, and some have even seen visions of the souls there needing prayers. Look to St. Faustina and blessed Catherine Emmerich for instance.[/quote]
Not to hurt your feelings, but for those who aren't Roman Catholic, Church "dogma" doesn't mean diddly squat. "Visions" by other people don't hold much water either. I do believe dairy was looking for explanation from reasonable logic, reasonable philosphy, and basic theology.

[Moneybags]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1199894' date='Feb 18 2007, 05:56 PM']Not to hurt your feelings, but for those who aren't Roman Catholic, Church "dogma" doesn't mean diddly squat. "Visions" by other people don't hold much water either. I do believe dairy was looking for explanation from reasonable logic, reasonable philosphy, and basic theology.[/quote]

A truth is a truth whether or not a person is Catholic or not. All people are called to that same universal truth. All people need to believe in the one, true Faith.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']9 Q. Does the Communion of Saints extend also to heaven and purgatory?
A. Yes, the Communion of Saints also extends to heaven and purgatory, because charity unites the three Churches — the Triumphant, the Suffering and the Militant; the Saints pray to God both for us and for the souls in purgatory; while we on our part give honour and glory to the Saints, and are able to relieve the suffering souls in purgatory by applying on their behalf indulgences and other good works.[/quote]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1199910' date='Feb 18 2007, 08:02 PM']A truth is a truth whether or not a person is Catholic or not. All people are called to that same universal truth. All people need to believe in the one, true Faith.[/quote]
Your answer didn't answer her question in any meaningful way. What you provided is no more than an opinion unless you provide reason and logic to back it up and justify belief in it. dairygirl has no logical reasons to accept the teaching on purgatory just because the RCChurch states it.