Liturgical Lay Ministers and Sacraments/Sacramentals

[Jaime]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197240' date='Feb 16 2007, 07:46 PM']I know... my haha was "that was a really good comeback" haha not a "wow that is the funniest joke I've ever heard" haha.
There is nothing that states they can.[/quote]


You might want to get a copy of the Book of Blessings then kiddo

[quote]1659 This rite may be celebrated by a priest or deacon who may be assisted by lay ministers in the distribution of the ashes. The blessing of the ashes, however, is reserved to a priest or deacon.[/quote]


Now apologize and be a good boy

[djc08]

A bunch of friends and I are skipping first hour Spanish to go to Ash Wenesday Mass and then we're going to return to school :'(...

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1197321' date='Feb 16 2007, 08:10 PM']You might want to get a copy of the Book of Blessings then kiddo
Now apologize and be a good boy[/quote]

Why would I want a copy of a book of blessings from a Rite I don't attend? It would be like me buying a Mozarabic Rite Missal... pointelss.

I still don't think that laypeople should distribute ashes, and on Ash Wednesday I will switch lines if I must.

Edited February 17, 2007 by StThomasMore

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1197487' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:47 PM']Why would I want a copy of a book of blessings from a Rite I don't attend? It would be like me buying a Mozarabic Rite Missal... pointelss.

I still don't think that laypeople should distribute ashes, and on Ash Wednesday I will switch lines if I must.[/quote]

The Church disgrees with you.

[Moneybags]

I don't want to create an argument, but I felt compelled to write this after seeing the words "extraordinary minister":

From St. Thomas Aquinas:


"Out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency" (Summa Theologica, III, Q. 82, Art. 3).


Mother Teresa's words:


When Mother Teresa was asked by Fr. George Rutler, "What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?" she replied without a moment’s hesitation: "Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion-in-the-hand."


The truth is that only a priest should be touching the Eucharist. Also, I, as a soon-to-be seminarian, firmly believe that [b]only[/b] a priest should also give out the ashes.

Edited February 17, 2007 by St. Benedict

[Jaime]

Hopefully you will learn the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental before you enter the seminary.


Ashes are not a sacrament. Anyone can handle a sacramental

[Aloysius]

The traditional roman rite and the current normative roman rite are not properly two different rites in the same way the mozarabic rite and the roman rite are different rites. it should be of tremendous interest to anyone who attends the traditional rite and wishes to understand the Church in a scholarly way how the current normative rite is governed by the hierarchy.

of course, if you are not interested in understanding the Church in a scholarly way, that's perfectly fine. It's fine for people to regularly attend the old rite and know nothing of the new rite living out the faith the way their grandparents did with simple faith. but if you wish to be one of these common lay folk, it is not your proper position to make comments on liturgical discussions and you ought to be silent on matters like this and accept your proper normal vocation of living out a simple faith.

it is always preferable for such things as this that a minister who properly represents an extension of the clergy not an extension of the laity to administer it. it keeps the liturgical symbolism intact. this is, of course, much more important for stuff like the administration of the Eucharist. penitential signs such as this can be administered by the laity to the laity without any real negative consequences to liturgical symbolism.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197492' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:56 PM']I don't want to create an argument, but I felt compelled to write this after seeing the words "extraordinary minister":

From St. Thomas Aquinas:
"Out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency" (Summa Theologica, III, Q. 82, Art. 3).
Mother Teresa's words:
When Mother Teresa was asked by Fr. George Rutler, "What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?" she replied without a moment’s hesitation: "Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion-in-the-hand."
The truth is that only a priest should be touching the Eucharist. Also, I, as a soon-to-be seminarian, firmly believe that [b]only[/b] a priest should also give out the ashes.[/quote]
Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.

[Didymus]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197492' date='Feb 16 2007, 10:56 PM']Also, I, as a soon-to-be seminarian, firmly believe that [b]only[/b] a priest should also give out the ashes.[/quote]

you wont be the only seminarian who thinks so

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1197503' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:09 PM']Hopefully you will learn the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental before you enter the seminary.
Ashes are not a sacrament. Anyone can handle a sacramental[/quote]
Thank you.


Sometimes I think this is more of a pride issue than anything else. The Church has made clear where she stands on this matter. Your opinions don't rule out the Church's teachings.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197512' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:18 PM']Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.[/quote]
precisely.

[Apotheoun]

It does not follow that because something [i]may[/i] be done, that it should be done.

The continuing liturgical clericalization of the laity in the Roman Church is creating a new obstacle to the restoration of full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, who see these liturgical changes as nothing more than a sign of the complete collapse of the sense of the sacred, and of the distinct roles of clergy and laity, within the divine liturgy.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197512' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:18 AM']Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.[/quote]
yes, the Church has ruled that they are allowed for extreme cases but are overall not preferable. according to everything the Church has said, it is most preferable that the Eucharist only be administered by priests as they extend the ministry of the bishop and deacons as they extend the ministry of the priest. if these are not possible on a consistent regular basis, acolytes ought to be instituted to extend the ministry of the priest/deacon by being installed by the bishop after a preparation process (so that he is, by being prepared by the bishop, a type of extension of the clerical state).

in extra-ordinary circumstances (ie not on a weekly or daily basis) an ordinary layman who has been appointed by the priest (maybe even the bishop) may also administer the Eucharist.

in the same way (but to a lesser degree of importance) the ashes should be distributed by some type of extension of the clergy to maintain liturgical symbolism in the interaction between the laity and the clergy/priestly office. seeing as Ash Wednesday is one day a year, not even the most crowded day, it should be easy to plan for some symbolic extension of the clergy to administer the ashes.

but this is something for priests to be advised on. it is the fault of priests or bishops if Extraordinary Ministers are misused/overused. the original poster of the thread is not at fault; if they didn't sign up to do it someone else would've. but you're perfectly within your rights to only receive your ashes or eucharist from a priest.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

So, from what i understand it is licit for a layman/woman to distribute the ashes. But why is it necessary?

[Moneybags]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1197503' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:09 PM']Hopefully you will learn the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental before you enter the seminary.
Ashes are not a sacrament. Anyone can handle a sacramental[/quote]

I do not accept that. It should be the sole duty of the priest to administer the ashes during the Mass as well as administer the Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord. Laypeople need to stop trying to act like priests, in my opinion.

[quote]Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.[/quote]

So we should ignore St. Thomas's most brillant theological work in favor of modernism? Let us ask ourselves if the Church over the past two thousand years previously allowed laypeople to administer the Eucharist. I will continue to hold St. Thomas's words extremely highly. It would be wrong to disagree with them since the Church has held the theological opinions of St. Thomas for centuries.

[catholic_apologetics]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197562' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:40 AM']I do not accept that.[/quote]

You do not accept the difference between a sacramental and a sacrament? Why not?