Skeptical Thoughts On Monastic Life

[Paddington]

I'm very sorry. Really. I have some skeptical thoughts on the idea of monks and nuns. I know that you will have a side to tell and I want to learn it.
If you don't know me, I'm not a Catholic or even a Christian.

Well....I will give some objections to the monk/nun thing and let you respond. Please note that I do not hold these objections strongly and could even talk a little about how great the monk/nun thing is too. I even have a feeling that I know what some of the answers are going to be. (in a good way). But, either way, I don't know jack about the topic.
That is where y'all come in. Please share some thoughts if you feel so inclined.

Thanks
Paddington

Objection #1
"Monks and Nuns are diluting the parishes of the Church by taking away people who would be holy, active members. The Church would be stronger with those people in regular churches. They are hidden away while parishes who could use them (sometimes urgently) are dying off."

Objection #2 (at best will be a partial truth )
"Monks and Nuns get paid to pray. Nobody should get paid to pray. (here, room and board count as money.) People should not even pray unless they are out in the world doing the kind of acts that they are praying will happen."

Objection #3 (is this one even true?)
"There should not be one single monastery or convent that is not self-supporting. There are some that depend on donations. That is begging."

Objection #4
"It is not fair that they get to live away from all of the temptations that we face. We are stuck out here in the world. Our jobs ask us to compromise. Complete strangers ask us to compromise. Temptations are up and down every street just by driving past. Why should monks and nuns have such an easier path to heaven than us?"

Objection #5
"Fasting and vigiling are dangerous. Any psychologist could tell you that it brings on brain syndrome. That is why people who fast and vigil can think that they hear voices and see things. Also, people are not good at work or study when they have fasted or vigiled. It also makes people make bad decisions that they regret when sleep and nutrients resume."

Objection #6
"Nobody should make a life-long vow that is unnecessary. Monks and nuns have no reason to ever make their vow into a life-long one. If they stayed without a vow, then mission accomplished. If they left without a vow, then they at least never broke a vow."

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1195673' date='Feb 14 2007, 11:08 PM']

I'm very sorry. Really. I have some skeptical thoughts on the idea of monks and nuns. I know that you will have a side to tell and I want to learn it.
If you don't know me, I'm not a Catholic or even a Christian.

Well....I will give some objections to the monk/nun thing and let you respond. Please note that I do not hold these objections strongly and could even talk a little about how great the monk/nun thing is too. I even have a feeling that I know what some of the answers are going to be. (in a good way). But, either way, I don't know jack about the topic.
That is where y'all come in. Please share some thoughts if you feel so inclined.

Thanks
Paddington[/quote]

===============

Paddington

This question probably belongs in the Catholic Topics forum, and might get moved because this forum is not for debate, but more for people who are discerning a religious life and need help with that.

Having said that, I will speak to you personally as a convert to the Catholic faith and a person seeking a life in a monsatery. I am not a learned Catholic scholar however, just a sincere person who loves God. Others may be able to respond with more appropriate comments.


[i]Objection #1
"Monks and Nuns are diluting the parishes of the Church by taking away people who would be holy, active members. The Church would be stronger with those people in regular churches. They are hidden away while parishes who could use them (sometimes urgently) are dying off."[/i]

First, you need to understand the importance of prayer to the Church. Although there are many holy parish members who are holy and active, these same members don't always have the time to devote to prayer for the Church and the world so this is the responsibility of those who are commited to religious life. As for being "hidden away", although the cloister grill may separate them from the public, many (if not most) monasteries offer Mass to the public, and also accept prayer requests from anyone who asks. Parishes that are blessed to have a monastery in their geographic area are very happy about this!

[i]Objection #2 (at best will be a partial truth )
"Monks and Nuns get paid to pray. Nobody should get paid to pray. (here, room and board count as money.) People should not even pray unless they are out in the world doing the kind of acts that they are praying will happen."[/i]

Monks and Nuns do not get paid to pray. Monasteries are self-supporting, and depend on various small industries to suport themselves, such as the making of altar bread, wine, honey, jam, mini horses, notecards, etc. The Diocese does not support monks and nuns.


[i]
Objection #3 (is this one even true?)
"There should not be one single monastery or convent that is not self-supporting. There are some that depend on donations. That is begging." [/i]

See O#3 for answer. Donations are accepted because many people like to give to charity, and they value the fact that monks and nuns pray for the world.


[i]Objection #4
"It is not fair that they get to live away from all of the temptations that we face. We are stuck out here in the world. Our jobs ask us to compromise. Complete strangers ask us to compromise. Temptations are up and down every street just by driving past. Why should monks and nuns have such an easier path to heaven than us?"[/i]

Just asking this question demonstrates that you really don't understand what is involved in monastic life. The life of a monk or nun is not easier than that of people in the world. All humans are subject to temptation, no matter where they are or what they do. Life in a monastery is not an escape from temptation or a hiding from life. It is an act of consecration to God, giving Him permission to use whatever means necessary to sanctify us. Monks and nuns are not asked to compromise - they are asked to submit to complete surrender of their will - that is the vow of OBEDIENCE -- in my opinion, the hardest vow of all. The also vow chasitity and poverty - a vow that those in the world could also make as a personal consecration to God if they want.... no one is stopping you from working towards heaven if that is what you want too! And nothing is stopping you from becoming a Catholic and entering a monastery if you think it is so easy!! lol


[i]
Objection #5
"Fasting and vigiling are dangerous. Any psychologist could tell you that it brings on brain syndrome. That is why people who fast and vigil can think that they hear voices and see things. Also, people are not good at work or study when they have fasted or vigiled. It also makes people make bad decisions that they regret when sleep and nutrients resume."[/i]


As a nurse, I can tell you that fasting and vigil can both be healthy - not unhealthy! It depends on how they are done. There is no such disease as "brain syndrome" so I don't know where you got that from? Certainly, a person who goes without food for a long time is susceptible to hallucinations. But that is not what a fast is all about, especially in the Church. And anyone who is not healthy, is dispensed from fasting.


[i]
Objection #6
"Nobody should make a life-long vow that is unnecessary. Monks and nuns have no reason to ever make their vow into a life-long one. If they stayed without a vow, then mission accomplished. If they left without a vow, then they at least never broke a vow."
[/i]

People who get married, do so with the intention of it being a lifelong commitment. So do monks and nuns. Monks and nuns fully intend to serve God for their whole lives. Sometimes this does not work out, and they either leave before making final vows, or ask for dispensation from their vows if they have already made them. Today, discernment is a lengthy process, just so that a monk or nun will not make those vows until they are sure. No one is perfect except God, so there will always be mistakes made. But as humans, there is no reason why we should not be able to commit ourselves to a way of life that we believe is our calling, or vocation, whether that is married life or religious life.

I don't know if any of my answers help you, but before worrying about monks and nuns, I would recommend that you first investigate what being a Catholic is all about. I converted 30 years ago, and I am now preparing to dedicate my life to God as a cloistered nun - and I have never been happier. I will keep you in my prayers - your sincerity is appreciated.

Annie

Edited February 15, 2007 by nunsense

[Paddington]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']
===============

Paddington

This question probably belongs in the Catholic Topics forum, and might get moved because this forum is not for debate, but more for people who are discerning a religious life and need help with that.
[/quote]

I'm sorry if I shouldn't have put it here. This phorum seemed to be "on the nose" for the topic. If it shouldn't be here, then I hope the mods move it.
I can be very debater-ish, but I don't like to post in the debate forum. Because, I don't really have much beliefs to be defending.

But thank you very much for responding.
It is very helpful.

[quote name='nunsense' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM' post='1195693
Monasteries are self-supporting, and depend on various small industries to suport themselves, such as the making of altar bread, wine, honey, jam, mini horses, notecards, etc. The Diocese does not support monks and nuns.
[[/quote]


This is very good to know.


[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']
===============
Just asking this question demonstrates that you really don't understand what is involved in monastic life. [/quote]

That's for sure.

[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']
===============

no one is stopping you from working towards heaven if that is what you want too! And nothing is stopping you from becoming a Catholic and entering a monastery if you think it is so easy!! lol
[/quote]

Good one.

[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']

As a nurse, I can tell you that fasting and vigil can both be healthy - not unhealthy! It depends on how they are done. [/quote]

Vigiling can be healthy? I don't get it.
Whipping yourself with shards of glass on a cord can't be healthy.

[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']
===============
There is no such disease as "brain syndrome" so I don't know where you got that from? [/quote]

Some info is available. It's not a disease tho. It is a temporary condition that people can go through without sleep or nutrients. I think I've probably had it a bunch of times! It must be common.
I hope this is a good link. It is about brain syndrome.

[url="http://www.changingminds.org/explanations/brain/brain_syndrome.htm"]http://www.changingminds.org/explanations/...in_syndrome.htm[/url]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']
===============
I don't know if any of my answers help you, [/quote]

Yes! They help a lot. The ones I commented on were kinda a mixture. You can consider everything else to have been extremely helpful. That is the kind of insight I hoped for when I posted the thread.


[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']
===============
but before worrying about monks and nuns, I would recommend that you first investigate what being a Catholic is all about.
[/quote]

I am.

[quote name='nunsense' post='1195693' date='Feb 15 2007, 06:15 AM']
===============
. I will keep you in my prayers - your sincerity is appreciated.

[/quote]

Thank you. I will try to remember you in my prayers as well.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Vigiling can be healthy? I don't get it.
Whipping yourself with shards of glass on a cord can't be healthy.[/quote]

I think you've got your words confused here. A vigil is a time of prayer or meditation, which usually takes place before the Blessed Sacrament and is often for a specific intention. I might organise a vigil for a sick friend who is in the hospital, for example, and people would set aside a couple of hours to come before the Blessed Sacrament and pray for her. Or a pro-life group might have a vigil on behalf of terminally ill people who don't believe that their lives have value any more. Sometimes vigils don't even have a precise intention - it is just a quiet 'meeting place' in the presence of God.

What you're talking about is corporal mortification - more specifically, the practice known as flagellation. The purpose of such mortification is to humble yourself, [i]not[/i] to cause physical injury. In the past there have been monks and nuns who got very carried away with their mortification, inflicting such pain on themselves that they were rebuked by the ecclesial authorities for a.) wilfully causing harm to a temple of God and b.) shifting the focus of mortification onto their own strength and powers of endurance.

Two nights ago a member of a Seventh-Day Adventist church who doesn't see the point of fasting ("After all, Paul says that we can eat meat without guilt...") asked me why Catholics observe Lent and make penances on Fridays. He wasn't satisified with my explanation and asked, "So, are you going to walk around without a coat the next time its snowing so you can increase the effect of your fast?" My reply was, "Mortification is not the same thing as masochism." There is not one monastery or convent in the world today where nuns and monks are actively encouraged to whip themselves with shards of glass, because to do so would be completely unCatholic. There can be no mortification without humility, and humility means that you have to accept your limitations.

One example of mortification that takes place in a monastery that I am seriously considering is the sisters' refusal to eat meat, unless there is a serious reason. Their diet is kept extremely plain. It is nourishing and well-cooked, but after just three days in the sisters' company I was craving after certain foods - mostly desserts - and I was astonished by my weakness. This is what mortification is really about: stripping away the things that don't really matter so in the end you are dependent on God alone.

Annie has answered all your objections very well, but I want to add something more to two of them:

[quote]"Monks and Nuns are diluting the parishes of the Church by taking away people who would be holy, active members. The Church would be stronger with those people in regular churches. They are hidden away while parishes who could use them (sometimes urgently) are dying off."[/quote]

I have a small booklet called [i]The Still Small Voice[/i] that talks about the Carmelite vocation, which was produced by the nuns at the Monastery of the Most Holy Trinity in Notting Hill, London. This question is addressed in there. "Nobody realised how valuable the rainforests were until they started to be chopped down for some more 'useful' purpose. Now we know that they made their contribution not by doing anything, but just by being there." For Catholics, prayer is of as much necessity as the air that we breathe. Contemplative nuns and monks are making a greater contribution than we will ever know - and it costs them a lot to do it, as they rarely receive any kind of recognition or praise from the world.

A Vatican document supports this concept:

"However pressing the needs of the active apostolate, Religious Institutes which are totally devoted to contemplation, must continue to play their wonderful role in the Mystical Body of Christ, in which "not all the members have the same function" (Romans 12:4), their members giving all their time to God alone in silence and solitude, praying continuously and willingly doing penance. They offer to God an outstanding sacrifice of praise, making God's People resplendent with the rich fruits of holiness; they stir it by their example and give it growth by the hidden fruitfulness of their apostolate. (From the Decree on Renewal of the Religious Life - Perfectae Caritatis)

But the most pressing and powerful explanation of the real need for people to devote themselves to contemplative prayer come from Jesus Himself. Here are two brief excerpts from the Gospels:

Now as they went on their way, he entered a certain village, where a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home. She had a sister named Mary, who sat at the Lord’s feet and listened to what he was saying. But Martha was distracted by her many tasks; so she came to him and asked, “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me to do all the work by myself? Tell her then to help me.” But the Lord answered her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and distracted by many things; there is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part, which will not be taken away from her.” (Luke 10:38-42).

Six days before the Passover Jesus came to Bethany, the home of Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. There they gave a dinner for him. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those at the table with him. Mary took a pound of costly perfume made of pure nard, anointed Jesus’ feet, and wiped them with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (the one who was about to betray him), said, “Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?” (He said this not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief; he kept the common purse and used to steal what was put into it.) Jesus said, “Leave her alone. She bought it so that she might keep it for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.” (John 12:1-8)

Shortly before he was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane and taken to his death, Jesus pleaded with his disciples. His pleading has now been transformed into a hauntingly beautiful meditative chant: "Stay with me. Remain with me. Watch and pray." Contemplative monks and nuns have known that invitation and responded to it. They are both the jar and the nard, shattering themselves in order to pour out the best they have. This calling is not for everyone; as St Paul writes, the Church is made up of many different kinds of people, most of whom [i]are[/i] called to minister to people as Martha did. But while helping people in need is always a wonderful thing to do (Jesus spent all of his ministry doing exactly that) it shows a dangerous lack of trust to believe that it is our own actions that are making the difference, and that our actions are somehow more significant than prayer. Jesus curled up on a cushion and slept while the disciples' boat was being tossed around Galilee in a storm. He was not worried by much, and at the centre of his peace was that 'lonely place' where he often went to pray.

[quote]"It is not fair that they get to live away from all of the temptations that we face. We are stuck out here in the world. Our jobs ask us to compromise. Complete strangers ask us to compromise. Temptations are up and down every street just by driving past. Why should monks and nuns have such an easier path to heaven than us?"[/quote]

Nuns and monks also face terrible temptations. I have met an extremely holy Carmelite nun who suffers from the repeated terror that her life with God might all be imagination. The peace of Christ shines out of her, but at what cost? She compares her own experiences to those of Jesus Himself, 'alone on that dreadful mountain'. St John of the Cross and St Therese of Lisieux underwent the same 'dark night of the soul'. In fact, I don't think there is a nun or a monk alive who hasn't experienced this. Then there is the difficulty of living in close quarters with a group of other people, many of whom you may not like very much but have to learn to love, as [url="http://www.carmelite.org.uk/Golders%20Green.html"]this article[/url] shows:

[quote]Sister Teresa, 71, has been a Carmelite nun since 1952. A warm and unassuming woman, she dresses in the brown Carmelite habit. She greets her visitors like old friends whom she has not seen for ages.

“Of course it’s not easy and there are many things I miss. But it’s a life of devotion to God,” she says with a smile. “I miss travelling, mountains, beautiful scenery and of course my relatives.

“There has also been a time in my life when I miss not having a family of my own. But I made this my choice.”
...

The training with the Carmelite Sisters is similar to other convents. A year of “finding out” is followed by two years as a novice. After this they may take their first vows of poverty, chastity and obedience lasting three years. At the end of this time they are free to go or take their final vows, which represent a commitment for life. “This is a difficult undertaking today. You need a certain amount of psychological balance to fit into enclosed life,” says Sister Teresa. “In the past, your hair was cut and this was symbolic of what you were leaving behind and what you were going forward to. It used to be a bridal ceremony in the chapel and afterwards in the enclosure you were given the habit. Nowadays, the habit is given privately within the enclosure."

She admits that once you become a nun, you don’t become superhuman. “The way someone holds a soup spoon can drive you round the bend. Just as in marriage, you either say, ‘I’ve had enough of you,’ or you get beyond it.”

Living with a group of nuns can be as difficult as living in any community, she says. “Before I entered, I’d lived with people of my own age and shared interests. Then I became a nun and found that the greatest difficulty was living with people I hadn’t chosen to live with, or friends I wouldn’t have picked by choice.
“But the most important thing is that you learn about yourself by living in a certain solitude and with other people. It’s still my greatest difficulty but it’s a source of growth."[/quote]

[HeavenlyCalling]

I am going to try to awnser what you said with charity, so if it does not always seem like it, please know that I am trying. My prayers are with you!
[quote name='Paddington' post='1195673' date='Feb 15 2007, 02:08 AM']
Objection #1
"Monks and Nuns are diluting the parishes of the Church by taking away people who would be holy, active members. The Church would be stronger with those people in regular churches. They are hidden away while parishes who could use them (sometimes urgently) are dying off."[/quote]
I have never heard of a Church that could not use more help, from both lay and concecrated people!! When a person leaves to become a religious, they leave the most important part behind, their prayers, which can always be put to good use.


[quote]Objection #2 (at best will be a partial truth )
"Monks and Nuns get paid to pray. Nobody should get paid to pray. (here, room and board count as money.) People should not even pray unless they are out in the world doing the kind of acts that they are praying will happen." [/quote]
As someone said above, monestaries are usually self supporting. I have seen nuns and monks make and sell coffins, alter breads, lace, statues and devotional items, food items and liquer

[quote]Objection #3 (is this one even true?)
"There should not be one single monastery or convent that is not self-supporting. There are some that depend on donations. That is begging." [/quote]
Our Lord Jesus liked off donations, he wandered from town to town and accepted what ever people could give, be it food or shelter. I see nothing wrong with begging.


[quote]Objection #4
"It is not fair that they get to live away from all of the temptations that we face. We are stuck out here in the world. Our jobs ask us to compromise. Complete strangers ask us to compromise. Temptations are up and down every street just by driving past. Why should monks and nuns have such an easier path to heaven than us?"[/quote]
Simple awnser, they dont. A nun or monks life is just as hard as anyone elses, more so even, look what they have given up!!!

[quote]Objection #5
"Fasting and vigiling are dangerous. Any psychologist could tell you that it brings on brain syndrome. That is why people who fast and vigil can think that they hear voices and see things. Also, people are not good at work or study when they have fasted or vigiled. It also makes people make bad decisions that they regret when sleep and nutrients resume."[/quote]
Studies show that fasting is accually very good for you ( as long as it is kept under control ), and the Bible is full of references to Jesus and His followers fasting. If you are ill or very elderly ( or in the secular world too young or with child ) then you are exempt from the fast

[quote]Objection #6
"Nobody should make a life-long vow that is unnecessary. Monks and nuns have no reason to ever make their vow into a life-long one. If they stayed without a vow, then mission accomplished. If they left without a vow, then they at least never broke a vow."
[/quote]
I think that in the current day we just have a hard time understanding commintment

I hope that this post helps, my prayers are with you!!!

[Starets]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1195673' date='Feb 15 2007, 02:08 AM']
Objection #1
"Monks and Nuns are diluting the parishes of the Church by taking away people who would be holy, active members. The Church would be stronger with those people in regular churches. They are hidden away while parishes who could use them (sometimes urgently) are dying off."

Objection #2 (at best will be a partial truth )
"Monks and Nuns get paid to pray. Nobody should get paid to pray. (here, room and board count as money.) People should not even pray unless they are out in the world doing the kind of acts that they are praying will happen."

Objection #3 (is this one even true?)
"There should not be one single monastery or convent that is not self-supporting. There are some that depend on donations. That is begging."

Objection #4
"It is not fair that they get to live away from all of the temptations that we face. We are stuck out here in the world. Our jobs ask us to compromise. Complete strangers ask us to compromise. Temptations are up and down every street just by driving past. Why should monks and nuns have such an easier path to heaven than us?"

Objection #5
"Fasting and vigiling are dangerous. Any psychologist could tell you that it brings on brain syndrome. That is why people who fast and vigil can think that they hear voices and see things. Also, people are not good at work or study when they have fasted or vigiled. It also makes people make bad decisions that they regret when sleep and nutrients resume."

Objection #6
"Nobody should make a life-long vow that is unnecessary. Monks and nuns have no reason to ever make their vow into a life-long one. If they stayed without a vow, then mission accomplished. If they left without a vow, then they at least never broke a vow."
[/quote]

Nunsense and Cathoholic Anonymous have already answered most of your objections. I will see what I can contriburte that has not already been contributed.

Objection 1
Monks and nuns do not withdraw from the world in order to withdraw from the world. they withdraw from the world in order to more completely engage it on a spiritual level.

Objection 2
Monks and nuns do not spend all their day praying and discussing the finer points of Christian mysticism. There is a lot of manual labour involved in keeping the physical plant working. Floors need to be swept. Dishes need to be washed. Landscaping needs to be done. Plumbing needs to be fixed.

Objection 3
Many monasteries are. Some run schools and universities. Others have bookshops or print shops or retreat centers. Even so sometimes they need donations.

Objection 4
The hardest thing about monastic life is the fact that you are living with the same people 24x7. If you join a monastery to escape the world, you will soon have to escape the monastery. also when you are alone with God you are also alone with yourself. You need the emotional and mental health to be able to handle that.

Objection 5
adequately answered i think

Objection 6
Somnetimes your vows are the only thing that keeps you there. If monks and nuns shouldnt take vows then maybe married people shouldnt take vows either.

I wrote a file about my experiences with visiting Christ in the Desert in New Mexico USA a couple years ago. You can read it here: [url="http://www.dboyko.info/dayinlife.html"]A Day in the Life of Christ in the Desert[/url]. The Novice Master at Christ in the Desert uses that page with his novices and postulants.

[Chiquitunga]

Hey Padington, you know the book that made me understand it all quite quickly was, [i]The Way of Divine Love[/i], by Sr. Josefa Menendez. It's a private revelation, but approved by the Church. That's when I first felt the call to the contemplative cloistered life.

There is a huge battle for souls out there, and it's the job of contemplative monks and nuns especially to pray and offer sacrifices to get them to Heaven! and out of Hell for eternity! It's quite a responsibility, which monks and nuns will be accountable for before God. It's a totally apostolic vocation, just in a hidden way. You'll see if you read this book what it's all about.

If you haven't heard the name Fr. Corapi before, you probably will before long on this Phorum. He's soooo awesome! I so highly recommend him to you, for learning about the awesome Catholic Faith. He says that one of the greatest heresies in the Church today is activism, and that contemplative nuns are like dynamite within the Mystical Body of the Church. Seriously, check him out. And check out that intense book, [i]The Way of Divine Love[/i]. You're in my prayers! ( and by the way, your screen name is awesome :j )

[Chiquitunga]

Thought I should supply a couple links for you, with my previous post: [url="http://www.fathercorapi.com"]http://www.fathercorapi.com[/url] & [url="http://olrl.org/books/divinelove.shtml"]The Way of Divine Love[/url] & on [url="http://www.amazon.com/Way-Divine-Love-Biography-Messenger/dp/0895552760"]amazon used books[/url], it's available.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

I wanted to add though regarding activism being a heresy, that this is in no way against the active religious life, as the really good active orders are very contemplative like the Missionaries of Charity and the Dominican Srs of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist. God has many many different missions out there. Just that the wholly contemplative life has also a mission in it of itself. Each mission is greatly needed, and each one helps & compliments the other.

Actually Sr. Josefa Menendez's order was not a wholly contemplative order (like St. Faustina's) but her writings and the messages from Jesus illustrate so well the immense value of a life of prayer and sacrifice. I remember one of the sisters at the Iron Mountain Carmel also felt called after she read [i]The Way of Divine Love[/i]. What a powerful book!

[Paddington]

Thanks everybody who has responded!

The answers are very good.

This thread turned out really well after my abrasive beginning.

[batteddy]

[quote]"There should not be one single monastery or convent that is not self-supporting. There are some that depend on donations. That is begging."[/quote]

There is nothing dishonorable about begging.

That is part of the anglo-Protestant work ethic, based on rather stern old testament principles.

The Catholic work ethic is much more different, much more heaven oriented.

[Piamaria]

"For those who believe, no explanation is neccessary; for those who do not, none is possible."

It's really that simple when it comes to the Creator and His creature. Not easy...but very simple indeed in my personal experience.

Pia

[SisterAli]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1195673' date='Feb 15 2007, 01:08 AM']Objection #1
"Monks and Nuns are diluting the parishes of the Church by taking away people who would be holy, active members. The Church would be stronger with those people in regular churches. They are hidden away while parishes who could use them (sometimes urgently) are dying off."

While they are *hidden* in prayer with Jesus Christ, I don't think parishes are dying off because God is calling men and women to become religious. God doesn't contradict himself and will *take* people away from a parish and then let that parish die off because they have left for the monastery. I believe that there are beautiful people out there that God has called to be laymen and laywomen. Those beautiful people will be holy, active members.

Objection #2 (at best will be a partial truth )
"Monks and Nuns get paid to pray. Nobody should get paid to pray. (here, room and board count as money.) People should not even pray unless they are out in the world doing the kind of acts that they are praying will happen."

Monks and Nuns don't get paid to pray. It is a self-gift of love that they have given themselves over to the Lord. A sacrifice for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Objection #3 (is this one even true?)
"There should not be one single monastery or convent that is not self-supporting. There are some that depend on donations. That is begging."

Many of the saints begged for food and funding for particular things in the convent or monastery. Mother Angelica is a GREAT example of this...although she is not a Saint...but hopefully one day!!!

Objection #4
"It is not fair that they get to live away from all of the temptations that we face. We are stuck out here in the world. Our jobs ask us to compromise. Complete strangers ask us to compromise. Temptations are up and down every street just by driving past. Why should monks and nuns have such an easier path to heaven than us?"

Let me tell you......the closer you get to Jesus, the more the devil tries to interfer. Imagine a religious or priest giving themselves over to the Church or to Jesus Christ as their Spouse???????????? THERE is INDEED temptation that religious face in the convent! I believe that monks and nuns have just a narrow path to heaven as does anyone else out there in the *world*.

Objection #5
"Fasting and vigiling are dangerous. Any psychologist could tell you that it brings on brain syndrome. That is why people who fast and vigil can think that they hear voices and see things. Also, people are not good at work or study when they have fasted or vigiled. It also makes people make bad decisions that they regret when sleep and nutrients resume."

Fasting can be a great thing of penance of offering up intentions and sacrfices for many different reasons. Sometimes offering up for those that have no one to pray for them or someone who is without food. Many many other ways....I've heard that fasting if done in a reasonable way can be a very good thing!

Objection #6
"Nobody should make a life-long vow that is unnecessary. Monks and nuns have no reason to ever make their vow into a life-long one. If they stayed without a vow, then mission accomplished. If they left without a vow, then they at least never broke a vow."

Just as one mentioned above...its just like marriage. Marriage without vows would be...nothing. The same is for religious life. God Bless You![/quote]