cmotherofpirl Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 [quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197771' date='Feb 17 2007, 10:38 AM']I completely understand! I've had to teach myself the Faith over the years. As a priest I want to catechise straight from the ambo each Sunday. I think I'll read parts of liturgical law, Council documents, and/or the Catechism of St. Pius X or even the Baltimore Catechism. People like me [b]want[/b] to be taught the Faith, but it isn't begin taught anymore. Where I live, the CCD program is a joke. Children are just passed along each year and learn virtually nothing.[/quote] Sermons and homliies are to be on the gospel, Mass is NOT school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1198011' date='Feb 17 2007, 01:03 PM']after four pages has this topic progressed anything for anyone? This issue is a tough one for converts. I can understand in a sacramental sense why women can not be priests (ironically the same argument can be used for non-jews, but hey whatever) but How do you leave this discussion with women feeling blessed and honored and not just like second class citizens?[/quote] REvj this discussion was NEVER about women being priests, never. No woman posting here wants to be a priest. WE are just tired of being told to shut up and just listen by people who are ignorant of church teachings. Thank God for John Paul II and Benedict. We are not evil tempting whores or a queen on a pedastal either. We are simply people who are equal in dignity with men before God. Women are perfectly capable of doing any non-sacramental job in the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share Posted February 17, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1198311' date='Feb 17 2007, 04:15 PM']REvj this discussion was NEVER about women being priests, never. No woman posting here wants to be a priest. WE are just tired of being told to shut up and just listen by people who are ignorant of church teachings. Thank God for John Paul II and Benedict. We are not evil tempting whores or a queen on a pedastal either. We are simply people who are equal in dignity with men before God. Women are perfectly capable of doing any non-sacramental job in the Church.[/quote] I really wonder why whenever we try to discuss anything related to the role of women it always turns into a conversation about why women cannot become priests. WE KNOW WE CANNOT AND WE DONT WANT TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But they seem suspicious of our intentions or something. It is very frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 mother, I was not intending to make this sound like a woman=priest issue. I understand that. Outside of this forum often the woman rights issue ends up being based on the woman=priests issue. Thats all i meant. Cause usually any attempt at explaining it comes down to what women can not do, not how they are special. I had a long discussion last year with an evangelical woman I truly love and respect; and there was just no way to put it in order for her to feel loved and respected. Dont make me to be the bad guy here. I am all for woman having an active role in the faith, and some of my most inspiring mentors in my conversion to catholicism were women (Dr. Michelle Weedman, U of Marquette) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share Posted February 17, 2007 [quote name='Revprodeji' post='1198376' date='Feb 17 2007, 05:00 PM']mother, I was not intending to make this sound like a woman=priest issue. I understand that. Outside of this forum often the woman rights issue ends up being based on the woman=priests issue. Thats all i meant. Cause usually any attempt at explaining it comes down to what women can not do, not how they are special. I had a long discussion last year with an evangelical woman I truly love and respect; and there was just no way to put it in order for her to feel loved and respected. Dont make me to be the bad guy here. I am all for woman having an active role in the faith, and some of my most inspiring mentors in my conversion to catholicism were women (Dr. Michelle Weedman, U of Marquette)[/quote] Revj Just so you know I was not happy over her saying that in your direction but what she said was very true. I think that you were trying to be supportive, and you seem to understand that most of these conversations can tend leave us women feeling a little undervalued and stuffed into a corner somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 [quote]Sermons and homliies are to be on the gospel, Mass is NOT school.[/quote]The priest can also teach about things other than that days Gospel, actually. I know of one FSSP priest who is a great orator who has sermon programs (i.e. he will preach about one of the Ten Commandments each Sunday for ten Sundays or the like, or use several Sundays to talk about a certain topic such as the errors of Communism.) [quote]Since when? You have never heard of CCD?[/quote] CCD programs usually smell of elderberries and teach you nothing. I would know. I went to such programs for about five years. Catechizing is for priests to do. That's what the Catechism of the Council of Trent was written for: to instruct parish priests on how to catechize their flocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share Posted February 18, 2007 Do you accept anything after Trent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 [quote name='philosobrat' post='1198429' date='Feb 17 2007, 05:48 PM']Revj Just so you know I was not happy over her saying that in your direction but what she said was very true. I think that you were trying to be supportive, and you seem to understand that most of these conversations can tend leave us women feeling a little undervalued and stuffed into a corner somewhere.[/quote] thank you...I love the ladies.. I actually was going to ask a question before this all started, asking what the fullness of involvement a woman can have in the church. I know the issue is women can not be priests is due to the sacramentals, but the problem is then that women are completely left out of the eccesiological structure. That is something I have serious issue with. A council of bishops come together to determine truth, doctrine, practice. But the voice of a woman is not heard. That is something that I feel is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 (edited) That's what makes it so important that there be a great deal of respect for the dignity of women, so that proper counsel is sought to ensure that it is respected. There are many instances of women saints advising priests, bishops, etc. If I am not mistaken Catherine of Sienna advised a pope! I'd like to think that the Church is, in so much as it is human and thus unaviodably plagued by concupisence (sp?), still able to ensure the voice/concerns/ etc of women are a) heard, and b) taken into consideration in all matters where that is appropriate. NOT IN MATTERS WHERE IT IS NOT, AKA THE PRIESTHOOD. (Sorry to shout, I just didn't want anyone to misunderstand me!) I share your concern. I trust in the Holy Spirit's ability to guide, but I also recognize the free will of people to ignore that guidance. The gates of hell will not ultimately prevail over the Church in the end, but there have been some dark times and there will be more. Those who are unable to recognize the dignity of women, just as those who are unable to treat them with dignity when discussing their roles, contributions, etc. only add to the darkness and are just as guilty of destroying the Church and tearing down the Body of Christ as those who do not treat the sacraments, the priesthood, etc. with appropriate respect. Christ was carried by a woman. Yes, she was immaculate, but her body protected and nourished him for approximately nine months. The women of today should be seen as having the same role in the Church, protecting and nurturing the body of Christ in the manner appropriate to their dignity as women and as children of God. Edited February 18, 2007 by The Little Way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share Posted February 18, 2007 again I say, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Why are you clapping? lil way, How, in a practical sense would you have it so women could take an active role in the leadership direction of the church? There are the rare examples when a woman was influencial, but these are very, very rare. The fact that I can name the amount of significant female theologians on one hand is very sad. I am far from a feminist, I am far from a liberal; but in all practical purpose is the church truly utlizing a great assist in its female voice? The church is the mother, I would be very supportive of a motherly voice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philosophette Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share Posted February 18, 2007 (edited) [quote]Those who are unable to recognize the dignity of women, just as those who are unable to treat them with dignity when discussing their roles, contributions, etc. only add to the darkness and are just as guilty of destroying the Church and tearing down the Body of Christ as those who do not treat the sacraments, the priesthood, etc. with appropriate respect. Christ was carried by a woman. Yes, she was immaculate, but her body protected and nourished him for approximately nine months. The women of today should be seen as having the same role in the Church, protecting and nurturing the body of Christ in the manner appropriate to their dignity as women and as children of God.[/quote] That is why I am clapping... and relief that we have finally gotten over the female priesthood kick. I do think that women seem greatly excluded in the experience of Catholicism for most Catholics (not including blood mothers or sisters)... We can name Mother Angelica, Mother Teresa.... um.... um..... um........ Most saints are men, most of the Doctors of the Church are male... men, men, men. I feel so without role models.. MODERN role models who are NOT nuns... Ok... uh... and they are both nuns... that makes me kind of feel like women should have a bigger voice in the Church, have some kind of place in leadership (NOT BISHOPS OR PRIESTS! let us not open up that can of worms again....) I do not see why it would be impossible. ok... let the moaning and nashing of teeth begin. Edited February 18, 2007 by philosobrat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 I got ur back... btw, there is also Joan of Arc, The cappadocian sister, and Thersa and Catherine...and there is as far as I can go (if those people are saints, im sorry. im new at the saint thing, but I have studied them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Yes, that is the problem isn't it? How to do this while at the same time avoiding a call for women's ordination, and all of those sorts of things. Let's be very clear. I am a Catholic feminist, JPII was a Catholic feminist. There is nothing in Catholic feminism that runs contrary to the teachings of the Church. Until we are freed from original sin and all its attendant limitations there will be a need for Catholic feminism because there will always be those who fail to recognize and/or respect the dignity of women in (and out of!) the Church. So, how is it done? 1) Catechesis at church, in the home, in society and so on 2) A recognition of the complementarity of masculine and feminine attributes of the Church and how those can build up the priesthood, as in ORDAINED priests. 3) The involvement of educated, well catechized, women at many levels of the Church as advisories, participants in a colloquial sort of way with priests, bishops, etc etc etc. (NOTE: I am in no way suggesting that we allow women to elect the pope, appoint bishops, etc etc etc. So don't anyone go there even if you're tempted) This is just a start. It will take generations for this to be successful. It will take humility, sacrifice, obedience, and the proper recognition and understanding of the different roles to which women and men in the Church are called. (Women can of course also influence the Church by the way they raise their families which naturally include future priests, bishops, and popes.) It will also take a better understanding of Trinitarian theology. The problems we have with the women who are "trying to take over the Church" or want to be ordained stem from a lack of understanding of the theological underpinnings of the teachings, or a lack of obedience to them. When it seems that women are "pushing men out" of their roles in the Church we have to ask the men and ourselves when we raise men, are women pushing the men out or are the men not there to begin with in a real substantial way. It's hardly fair to say that all women (because surely some do) are intending to push men out of certain roles when in many instances the men throw up their hands and don't stand their ground. Mary would never have pushed anyone and John only stood aside when recognizing the authority of Peter. We do ourselves a great disservice when we don't stand up for our appropriate roles and their attendant responsibilities. I'm sure there is more I could say on this, but I'll leave it at this for now. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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