The Role Of Women In The Church

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='avemaria40' post='1194645' date='Feb 14 2007, 10:17 AM']
I also get offended by how some people say that most women are conniving, catty, and unladylike. This hurts because I try my best to be a lady, I hate gossip, and I would never connive with anyone. Yes, I do like some lowbrow humor (Monty Python, etc.) but I don't see that as being unladylike, it just means I have a different sense of humor than most of my female friends. And I don't understand the "Girls can't wear pants" debates either. Am I unholy because I usually wear khakis to church and not skirts? Or that I wear jeans on a regular basis?
[/quote]

THis stuff is usually said by men... What they see as catty and conniving means we are an excellent judge of relationships, understand the social networking system far better than they do and know how to work for goals under the radar as to not threaten the male power structure. "Unladylike" is always thrown at women by men [ and jealous women] when a women threatens something perceived as "male".
It is interesting historically, that when men go off to war the concept of "unladylike" behavior changes rather quickly.

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1194662' date='Feb 14 2007, 10:47 AM']
I totally agree with you on the pants thing! It drives me nuts when people try to tell me that you can't be feminine and wear pants. Honestly, with me, it's FAR more modest to wear pants than skirts. Let's just say that I've had more than a few unpleasent experiences with skirts! I don't care if other girls want to (provided they are decent skirts and actually COVER something!), but do not try to make me. I wear skirts only when I HAVE to (fuerals and weddings, basically).
[/quote]
Amen.

[goldenchild17]

*off-topic alert* I find your guys' usage of the word neo-con extremely interesting. I didn't know that's how it was defined in other circles. Okay, back on subject .

[cmotherofpirl]

For the record, I don't dislike men. I would actually like to see them more active in many churches, since they have wimped out in so many other places in society. Separate distinct equal roles [off the altar]would be ideal.

[rachael]

it's good to know that i'm not the only one who can get irritated on here.

[cmotherofpirl]

perfect timing Holy Father :
WOMEN DID NOT ABANDON JESUS



VATICAN CITY, FEB 14, 2007 (VIS) - The role of women in the history of the Church was the theme chosen by Benedict XVI for his catechesis at today's general audience, which was held in the Paul VI Hall in the presence of 20,000 people.

"Jesus chose 12 men as fathers of the new Israel, 'to be with Him and to be sent out to proclaim the message'," said the Holy Father, "but ... among the disciples many women were also chosen. ... They played an active role within the context of Jesus mission. In the first place ... the Virgin Mary, who with her faith and her maternal care worked in a unique way for our redemption. ... Having become a disciple of her Son, ... she followed Him even to the foot of the cross where she received a maternal mission for all his disciples in all times."

After mentioning other women who appear in various parts of the Gospel - such as Susanna, and Lazarus' sisters Martha and Mary - the Pope pointed out that "the women, unlike the Twelve, did not abandon Jesus at the hour of His Passion. Outstanding among them was Mary Magdalene ... who was the first witness of the Resurrection and announced it to the others." Pope Benedict also recalled how St. Thomas Aquinas referred to Mary Magdalene as "the apostle of the apostles."

In the first Christian communities, Benedict XVI went on, "the female presence was anything but secondary." St. Paul "starts from the fundamental principle according to which among the baptized 'there is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female'." Furthermore, "the Apostle admits that in the Christian community it is quite normal that there should be women who prophesy, in other words who pronounce openly under the influence of Holy Spirit for the edification of the community."

Therefore St. Paul's subsequent assertion that "women should be silent in the churches" must "be relativized," said the Pope, and he explained that "the problem ... of the relationship between these two apparently contradictory indications should be left to the exegetes."

"The history of Christianity would have developed quite differently without the generous contribution of many women," said the Pope and he recalled how John Paul II had written: "The Church gives thanks for each and every woman ... for all the manifestations of the feminine 'genius'."

"We share this appreciation, giving thanks to the Lord because He leads His Church, generation after generation, indiscriminately using men and women who know how to bring their faith to fruition ... for the good of the entire body of the Church.

After the audience, relatives of three Israeli soldiers - Ehud Goldwaser and Eldad Regev, held by the Lebanese group Hezbollah since July 2006, and Gilad Shalit, in the hands of the Palestinian group Hamas since June 25 - handed the Pope the copy of a letter in which they request the immediate and unconditional liberation of their loved ones

Prior to the audience in the Paul VI Hall, the Pope had met in the Vatican Basilica with bishops from the Italian region of the Marches, who are currently undertaking their "ad limina" visit. The prelates were accompanied by civil authorities and faithful from their various dioceses.

The Holy Father also recalled that on September 1 and 2, he will participate in a national meeting of Italian youth at the shrine of Loreto, Italy, and he invited young people to attend in large numbers. In closing, he read a prayer to the Virgin Mary asking, among other things, that she watch over this pastoral initiative so that it may be "fertile soil for the Italian Church."

AG/WOMEN/... VIS 070214 (630

[cmotherofpirl]

perfect timing Holy Father :
WOMEN DID NOT ABANDON JESUS



VATICAN CITY, FEB 14, 2007 (VIS) - The role of women in the history of the Church was the theme chosen by Benedict XVI for his catechesis at today's general audience, which was held in the Paul VI Hall in the presence of 20,000 people.

"Jesus chose 12 men as fathers of the new Israel, 'to be with Him and to be sent out to proclaim the message'," said the Holy Father, "but ... among the disciples many women were also chosen. ... They played an active role within the context of Jesus mission. In the first place ... the Virgin Mary, who with her faith and her maternal care worked in a unique way for our redemption. ... Having become a disciple of her Son, ... she followed Him even to the foot of the cross where she received a maternal mission for all his disciples in all times."

After mentioning other women who appear in various parts of the Gospel - such as Susanna, and Lazarus' sisters Martha and Mary - the Pope pointed out that "the women, unlike the Twelve, did not abandon Jesus at the hour of His Passion. Outstanding among them was Mary Magdalene ... who was the first witness of the Resurrection and announced it to the others." Pope Benedict also recalled how St. Thomas Aquinas referred to Mary Magdalene as "the apostle of the apostles."

In the first Christian communities, Benedict XVI went on, "the female presence was anything but secondary." St. Paul "starts from the fundamental principle according to which among the baptized 'there is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female'." Furthermore, "the Apostle admits that in the Christian community it is quite normal that there should be women who prophesy, in other words who pronounce openly under the influence of Holy Spirit for the edification of the community."

Therefore St. Paul's subsequent assertion that "women should be silent in the churches" must "be relativized," said the Pope, and he explained that "the problem ... of the relationship between these two apparently contradictory indications should be left to the exegetes."

"The history of Christianity would have developed quite differently without the generous contribution of many women," said the Pope and he recalled how John Paul II had written: "The Church gives thanks for each and every woman ... for all the manifestations of the feminine 'genius'."

"We share this appreciation, giving thanks to the Lord because He leads His Church, generation after generation, indiscriminately using men and women who know how to bring their faith to fruition ... for the good of the entire body of the Church.

After the audience, relatives of three Israeli soldiers - Ehud Goldwaser and Eldad Regev, held by the Lebanese group Hezbollah since July 2006, and Gilad Shalit, in the hands of the Palestinian group Hamas since June 25 - handed the Pope the copy of a letter in which they request the immediate and unconditional liberation of their loved ones

Prior to the audience in the Paul VI Hall, the Pope had met in the Vatican Basilica with bishops from the Italian region of the Marches, who are currently undertaking their "ad limina" visit. The prelates were accompanied by civil authorities and faithful from their various dioceses.

The Holy Father also recalled that on September 1 and 2, he will participate in a national meeting of Italian youth at the shrine of Loreto, Italy, and he invited young people to attend in large numbers. In closing, he read a prayer to the Virgin Mary asking, among other things, that she watch over this pastoral initiative so that it may be "fertile soil for the Italian Church."

AG/WOMEN/... VIS 070214 (630

[Seven77]

Philosbrat,

Thanks for posting. satan likes gender conflicts and may even use PM to do it. He's the enemy. Fight him with Truth.

You need to read [u]Mulieris Dignitatem (On the Dignity and Vocation of Women) [/u] by JPII.

Catholic Answers had a recent show with Gloria Purvis called "The Role of Women in the Church"!

[url="http://www.catholic.com/radio/calendar.php?type=month&calendar=1&category="]http://www.catholic.com/radio/calendar.php...1&category=[/url]

Look under Fri. Feb. 2nd.

Peace of Christ!

and Happy St. Valentine's Day

[philosophette]

Ugh. My quoting got goofed up. Oh well.

CMother - The people who told me that i should cook after Mass were both men AND women. And one man (the cantor-in-charge) told me that my singing, although it was the best of my life and many people said they liked it, was offensive to God... and he never allowed me to sing again; and the priest, although he supported me at the beginning, caved to the male pressure.


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1194709' date='Feb 14 2007, 10:24 AM']
For the record, I don't dislike men. I would actually like to see them more active in many churches, since they have wimped out in so many other places in society. Separate distinct equal roles [off the altar]would be ideal.
[/quote]

Agreed. I do not generally think that altar girls are necessary, but I am sure that there is the rare exception. .. and some of my best friends are men.

I used to only wear skirts because I was converted by "neocons" (used in the "more Catholic than the pope" sense) and that told me that was the only acceptable dress for women. I was zealous and did not want to offend God, so skirts it was. I still like skirts very much, BUT since then I have launched out of my own and discovered that they were wrong and that pants are rather useful in daily life.

[quote] GoldenChild:*off-topic alert* I find your guys' usage of the word neo-con extremely interesting. I didn't know that's how it was defined in other circles. Okay, back on subject [/quote]

My understanding is that if you desire a reverent liturgy, balanced roles for men and women in the Church, a respect for the dignity of each person, a sense of the sacred and the vocation of the Catholic in the modern world then you are CATHOLIC not a neo-con. Neo-con, in my experience, means you are too far to the right; liberal is too far to the left. The happy middle is where Benedict XVI sits and JPII sat. I like to stick with the Pope.


Rock on, Holy Father... its like he KNEW that we needed it. I did start reading Mulitartis Dignitatem (sp?) last night. It made me feel better.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1194709' date='Feb 14 2007, 08:24 AM']For the record, I don't dislike men. I would actually like to see them more active in many churches, since they have wimped out in so many other places in society. Separate distinct equal roles [off the altar]would be ideal.[/quote]agreed.

[Seven77]

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1194863' date='Feb 14 2007, 12:55 PM']The happy middle is where Benedict XVI sits and JPII sat. I like to stick with the Pope.
Rock on, Holy Father... its like he KNEW that we needed it. I did start reading Mulitartis Dignitatem (sp?) last night. It made me feel better.
[/quote]

[HeavenlyCalling]

First off, I am a girl ( that feels odd to say, but is kinda needed online : ) and I am an alter server. I started it on my mothers insistance, and I really feel out of place doing it. I think, like cmom said, that it is a step toward the priesthood, and not a place for girls. However, I have no problem with woman in other positions. For example, in my favorite church the choir ( minus the organist ) is all-woman, the two retired Srs. of Saint Joe deal with most of the 'behind the scene's' work in the church, and always welcome help, woman teach the majority of ccd classes, and are a large part of planning for major evens ( which we have a lot of, we love to party! ).

I prefer to wear skirts, but I have no problem with woman who dont ( excpert,of course mini skirts and short shorts ) and I think you can look very feminan in pants. In the skirts I wear I can do everything I do in pants, from jumping over our fence ( dont ask ) to riding my bike. I think it is a matter of personal prferance.

Happy Valentine's Day!!!!

[Aloysius]

please.. tell us how you really feel!

on PhatMass I focus mainly on academic facts and what is best according to the documents and history of the Church... and because of that my language as to whether women should wear veils in Church tends to be a lot stronger than when I'm discussing it in person. Either way, I am of the opinion that all women ought to do it... but there's no need to get angry about it. That is my legitimate opinion informed by the history of the Church; the men and women who supported and defended and practiced this as sacred and required throughout our long history (although there are more men with writings about it, the women just led by example). Yes, I am a man; but that doesn't give me any less ability to speak on the subject. I like to talk about many subjects of differing levels of importance... and I put my whole effort into all of them. Just because something has a low level of importance does not mean that it ought to be ignored. I once participated in a very deep discussion about how many angels could dance on the tip of a needle.

There are a lot of comments that go to far or are superficial about altar girls and chapel veils. The Creepy Aliens topic was a bit ridiculously worded and strong... that's why I laughed and said "brilliant" (the tagline from Guiness commercials when they've usually just done something outlandish which might make some sense)

Anyway, these are legitimate areas of discussion and oftentimes you will find the faithful being reactionary against the androgyny of our society to a degree which might border on misogyny... but that's because there's misandry permeating our modern culture and the attitudes about the liturgy.

I do believe everything I've ever said on the subject has been perfectly in line with the positions of both John Paul II and Benedict XVI; and I don't like the labeling going on here one bit. In Trad circles, the term "neo-con" refers to people who try to be conservative of the 'new order'... ie these people are considered 'liberal'. The people you're calling neo-con would not agree with the term at all. But that's besides the point: you've single handedly excommunicated people just for having legitimate liturgical opinions (oftentimes supported by Rome and the history of the Church) as not "real Catholics". It's absurd, ridiculous, and offensive. Yes, they might have been slightly abrasive with their comments; but you're doing no better calling them neo-cons and saying we have to all 'get to the middle'. There's a certain type of middle which we all must go to in order to navigate away from dangerous waters but that type of middle is a lot more radically off to a direction unknown to either the right or left than this middle analogy makes it out to be.

Anyway, as the Church herself continues to suggest: true active lay participation is found in the pews not on the altar. The proper types of people who ought to go to the altar are those who are either clergy or have the potential to become clergy or are on their way to becoming clergy. everything else is considered extra-ordinary by the Church. I am a lay man who will be a lay man the rest of my life and therefore I am in the same boat as any lay woman in this regard.

Now, the architecture of the Church being better would make this a whole lot easier... I like the loft choir in the back of a church which is full of laity. but even though choirs are now being put on the altar, it's fine to have women in the choir because that is not a proper function of the clergy. the minor readings can be taken by the laity if there is no one available who represents an extension of the clergy... lay men and women alike are fine for that extra-ordinary situation (which is, by sad fact of the vocations crisis, all too ordinary nowadays). the gospel and homily and all other liturgical altar-centered acts ought to be conducted by the clergy and those who may one day become clergy, though.

women ought to be equal in dignity and distinct in roles, slightly distinct in the liturgical roles from the lay man (merely by liturgical dress) but wholly distinct in the liturgical roles along with the lay men from the clergy... because the whole congregation represents the feminine side of the exchange going on there between heaven and earth.

EDIT: anyway, the Choir is an extension of the congregation fit for the laity (male and female alike). the bringing of the gifts is an extension of the congregation for for the laity (male and female alike). Extraordinary ministors of communion/readers are fit only when a proper extension of the clergy is not available.

[XIX]

I could really afford to stop labeling people myself. I could be a better person. Definitely.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='philosobrat' post='1194453' date='Feb 14 2007, 12:54 AM']
1) I am SICK SICK SICK of hearing about how women should/must/have to/are offending God and the angels of they do not/are recommended to wear chapel veils in church.

...

2) I feel like there is a spirit of misogyny around here, especially among the more traditionally leaning Catholics. I doubt that it is intention, but it still clouds the discussions. The whole discussion about altar girls in the Creepy Aliens board was more annoying than anything else I have read. The debate was not even kind towards females. It felt a lot like "ew, ew, ew... get them away! They are going to creep the boys out!" rather than something more charitable.

...

Do you know why we are silent, why we do not have time to do all that you do? It is because we are fulfilling the love of Christ in the lives of others. You may have the staff, but we have the heart and the heart is what draws people to Christ.

So, PLEASE people, lets have a conversation about what women CAN DO in the Church and the liturgy... because I am VERY frustrated.
[/quote]

Amen sistah! ;-)

You just hit on a lot of the reasons it took me several years to finally choose Catholicism. It's tough getting past Catholics themselves, but it's worth it to discover that there really is a passionate, loving heart within the Church. This is also why I don't care anything for attending Traditionalist churches that are into the Latin thing... frankly, I'd rather attend Mass with a bunch of liberal Catholics. At least there I don't have to worry about what I look like, say, how many people I shake hands with, whether I stand or kneel after Communion, if someone's labeled me a heretic because I was distracted by something and forgot to kneel before sitting, if I should receive Communion kneeling or standing or on the tongue or in my hand and what each of those options implies about me, my faith, and my politics.... what else is there???

Anyway, it's good to vent once in a while.

For the record, I receive on the tongue (because I actually prefer it, not because I give a rats a** about looking holy), and I'm completely faithful to the Church (because I love the Church and depend on it for my salvation, not because I'm scared of qwerties), and I like liberals (because most of them will actually have a conversation with you while my fellow conservatives don't like the fact that people are individuals with individual opinions), and I go to Reconciliation once or twice a month (because I know it's strengthening power against anything evil; I don't care about performing religion for religion's sake).

And maybe this Saturday I'll be confessing about my judgmental attitude towards Trads

In all seriousness, we don't want to tear each other down, but everyone needs the occasional constructive criticism since it's easy to fall into divisions where we see only the good in our own segment of the Church and only the bad in everywhere else (case in point, this Traditionalist vs. Charistmatic worthip thing... if anyone wants to point out problems in the Charismatic Movement, they should be willing to hear what's wrong with Traditionalism and we must recognize what's good about both).

[Aloysius]

There's a lot of problems in the prideful attitudes of traditional Catholics. There's a lot of problems in the irreverent attitudes of many non-traditional Catholics.

I hate the way people take holy and beautiful traditions of the Church and turn them into the prideful vs. the humble. But I mean on both sides... those who would act holier than thou and be judgemental against those who do not do all the same good pious practices; as well as the frustratingly well intentioned people who won't do pious practices because they're afraid of coming off as being holier-than-thou. if everyone acts like that then OF COURSE the only people doing those pious practices will be the ones with the holier-than-thou attitudes. It's really quite a sad cycle.

Anyway, I am no misogynist. I love women for their unique femininity and feel a lot of feminism is trying to justify women by giving them masculinity thereby fueling all the old sexisms in a new and more androgynous way. It's really sad, there could be such a beautiful and good feminist movement to expand upon the beautiful choreography the sexes could have; instead we get this contentious bitter movement trying to tear down distinctions between the sexes.